Perpetual Forgiveness

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

NetChaplain

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2018
735
259
63
#1
Does God need to repeatedly forgive His children? What would such a need be, seeing He knows all we desire is to please Him; and this He assures (Phl 2:13). There is allowance for babes in Christ, who may yet have a habitual sin to give up, but He eventually brings all to the same knowledge, understanding and application concerning willful sins. If one does not eventually mature enough in Christ, it manifests yet to be reborn.

The sins of Christians eventually become more in the way of impulse, like wrath, jealousy, envy, selfish- pride, etc. which are sins that are not intentional, “presumptuous” (Num 15:30) or “willingly” (Heb 10:25). These spring up out of the moment and are not planned or intended. When believers sin unwillingly they confess, i.e. admit the wrong, or the Spirit will continue to convict until you confess, because now you belong to God, and He will not let you go your own way anymore. We confess, then thank God for His continued forgiveness.

It’s not that God has to go in and out of forgiveness, but it’s a need-only-once application during the initial confession of our salvation—from there on He will always be “faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1Jn 1:9). Otherwise this would mean He has to keep repeating His cleansing from our sins, which is not necessary; same principle as being forgiven “once for all (Heb 10:10). Let’s not forget that “by one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified” (Heb 10:14).

Our sanctification has to do with no longer being part of the “carnal mind,” nor part of the “flesh” (Rom 8:7, 9). God only sees the believer in Him and His Son, never again after the “old man” (flesh).

The Lord’s Prayer was to the Jew under the Law, which was forgiving to be forgiven. Now, it’s always forgive, and love as He loved, which is different from love according to how you love yourself.

We are never out of His forgiveness, any more than we are ever out of His love in Christ!


God be blessed!
 

Karlon

Well-known member
Mar 8, 2023
2,701
1,235
113
#2
Does God need to repeatedly forgive His children? What would such a need be, seeing He knows all we desire is to please Him; and this He assures (Phl 2:13). There is allowance for babes in Christ, who may yet have a habitual sin to give up, but He eventually brings all to the same knowledge, understanding and application concerning willful sins. If one does not eventually mature enough in Christ, it manifests yet to be reborn.

The sins of Christians eventually become more in the way of impulse, like wrath, jealousy, envy, selfish- pride, etc. which are sins that are not intentional, “presumptuous” (Num 15:30) or “willingly” (Heb 10:25). These spring up out of the moment and are not planned or intended. When believers sin unwillingly they confess, i.e. admit the wrong, or the Spirit will continue to convict until you confess, because now you belong to God, and He will not let you go your own way anymore. We confess, then thank God for His continued forgiveness.

It’s not that God has to go in and out of forgiveness, but it’s a need-only-once application during the initial confession of our salvation—from there on He will always be “faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1Jn 1:9). Otherwise this would mean He has to keep repeating His cleansing from our sins, which is not necessary; same principle as being forgiven “once for all (Heb 10:10). Let’s not forget that “by one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified” (Heb 10:14).

Our sanctification has to do with no longer being part of the “carnal mind,” nor part of the “flesh” (Rom 8:7, 9). God only sees the believer in Him and His Son, never again after the “old man” (flesh).

The Lord’s Prayer was to the Jew under the Law, which was forgiving to be forgiven. Now, it’s always forgive, and love as He loved, which is different from love according to how you love yourself.

We are never out of His forgiveness, any more than we are ever out of His love in Christ!


God be blessed!
the answer may be yes. 1st John 1:9 "IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS , He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins". we sin almost everyday.
 

NetChaplain

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2018
735
259
63
#3
When John wrote that we "cannot sin" it is in reference to desiring after sin, sinning "willfully" (Heb 10:26) or "presumptuously" (Num 15:28, 30). The sins of one reborn are never intentional. What believer would ever want to purposely offend God? The whole point is that the "old man" can no longer cause us to desire to sin (Ro 6:14; 8:9). I believe God left the old man (sin nature) in us to continue to learn from it, by exercising our faith in His forgiveness.

Please give Gill a test-read on 1Jn 3:
https://www.christianity.com/bible/commentary/john-gill/1-john/3
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
1,803
631
113
#4
When John wrote that we "cannot sin" it is in reference to desiring after sin, sinning "willfully" (Heb 10:26) or "presumptuously" (Num 15:28, 30). The sins of one reborn are never intentional. What believer would ever want to purposely offend God? The whole point is that the "old man" can no longer cause us to desire to sin (Ro 6:14; 8:9). I believe God left the old man (sin nature) in us to continue to learn from it, by exercising our faith in His forgiveness.

Please give Gill a test-read on 1Jn 3:
https://www.christianity.com/bible/commentary/john-gill/1-john/3
Hi.. when John wrote that there were those that believed after saved they cannot sin so the sweet holy Spirit said if we say we have no sin we deceive our self's and the truth is not in us. And we confess our sins and He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleans us from all unrighteousness. There are still those that talk about sin yet add words to verses that are not there.

Hebrews.. tell us just who he was talking to. Some Jews that were saved would sin and try to go back and offer a sacrifice for that sin. He the sweet sweet holy Spirit by Paul said there is no more sacrifice for that sin He cannot die again so to do that puts Christ to open shame. Willfully sinning are those that reject Christ and what He did on the Cross. There is no believer that has not willingly sinned those that say they have not deceive themselves. Would seem best to stop since I see one does not no offense truly understand the spiritual and the natural. The NT talks about it. It was not left
 
Aug 5, 2023
195
31
18
50
Cyprus
#5
The mini lesson from Jesus on how to pray in Matthew 6 says that we’re to pray, give us this day our daily bread. Meaning the model for prayer gives instructions on what to pray for each day. Part of the instructions to pray each day?

12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
 

NetChaplain

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2018
735
259
63
#6
the answer may be yes. 1st John 1:9 "IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS , He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins". we sin almost everyday.
Yes, but a genuine Christian desires not to sin intentionally (Heb 10:25). Believers no longer desire to live after the sin nature (old man), because we are "not in the flesh" (Ro 8:9; 6:14). If anyone continues in willful sin, they have yet to be reborn. Immature believers are eventually brought to maturity in Christ (Phl 2:13).
 

NetChaplain

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2018
735
259
63
#7
There is no believer that has not willingly sinned
It's my belief that a believer doesn't sin on purpose. If we sin ignorantly the Spirit will convict until we know about it, confess, i.e. admit we sinned, and repent of it.
 

NetChaplain

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2018
735
259
63
#8
The mini lesson from Jesus on how to pray in Matthew 6 says that we’re to pray, give us this day our daily bread. Meaning the model for prayer gives instructions on what to pray for each day. Part of the instructions to pray each day?

12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
Jesus was teaching Law when He gave the Jews the model prayer; it's conditional, that only if you forgive others. Christians will always forgive, because the Lord commanded it; and this forgiveness is conditional on the Lord Jesus Himself. Big difference between the two methods.
 
Aug 5, 2023
195
31
18
50
Cyprus
#9
Jesus was teaching Law when He gave the Jews the model prayer; it's conditional, that only if you forgive others. Christians will always forgive, because the Lord commanded it; and this forgiveness is conditional on the Lord Jesus Himself. Big difference between the two methods.
That’s a lot of gymnastics to make Jesus not say what he said to do.
 
Aug 5, 2023
195
31
18
50
Cyprus
#10
Jesus was teaching Law when He gave the Jews the model prayer; it's conditional, that only if you forgive others. Christians will always forgive, because the Lord commanded it; and this forgiveness is conditional on the Lord Jesus Himself. Big difference between the two methods.
Jesus . . .

Matthew 6
9 Pray then like this:

12 and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors


Luke 11:2 And he said to them, “When you pray, say:
4 and forgive us our sins,
for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us.

You have Jesus saying pray like this, and when you pray say.
Then we have other people saying don’t do what Jesus said to do.
 

NetChaplain

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2018
735
259
63
#11
That’s a lot of gymnastics to make Jesus not say what he said to do.
The Lord Jesus had to teach three different dispensations: the OT (Law); the NT (Gospel); the coming Kingdom (eternity). He gave that model prayer only to the Jews under the Law, before it was "taken away" (Heb 10:9).
 
Aug 5, 2023
195
31
18
50
Cyprus
#16
Not sure what you mean. Where did the idea of three years come from? Thanks!
Well you said he was preaching to different dispensations, which implies what he said about prayer was for that dispensation. And seeing he preached for three years, and the new dispensation started after the resurrection, it would follow that his statements on prayer, only for a specific dispensation, were to only last for three years.
 
F

FollowingtheWay

Guest
#17
In Roman’s 7 Paul is describing the civil war going on in the heart of a believer. The war between the old man’s nature and our new nature. Paul is careful to describe how it’s not him sinning but sin living within him. He separated the two. Paul describes how wretched his experiences are of this civil war. Paul is not calling himself a curse but the sin living in him yet. There is a lot of sin in our hearts that have become strongholds as in
Eph 4:26-27 and a deep repentance to find the root of the sin may be required by prayerfully going back into our stories and finding where we first began to give our hearts over to that opened the door to that sin, repent of the core sin that got in and ask Jesus to heal the place where that particular sin gained access to our soul. This is how a believer begins to truly repent from habitual sin. Ask Jesus what in our heart has been driving us to this sin. What lack? What am I looking for in this sin to do for me . Comfort? Approval? Control? Power? Which are source idols that drive behavioral sin we visually see.

Find the source idol to the habitual sin. Track that back to the emotional or spiritual wound. Invite Jesus in to reveal then heal the wound. Which Shuts the door from Satan gaining entrance again and the behavioral habitual sins will stop as a byproduct.
 
F

FollowingtheWay

Guest
#18
Also in regards to the prayer.

“Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6‬:‭9‬-‭15‬ ‭ESV‬‬

He wasn’t telling us specific things to say but how our prayer aught to be basically arranged . Not law but instruction, modeling the type of prayer Father loves to hear from us. He was after where our hearts are at during prayer are we trying to follow a set of laws or speaking to him with hearts engaged with His Kingdom in focus
 
F

FollowingtheWay

Guest
#19
This prayer I believe is being modeled for believers in Jesus because. He is showing us how to invoke Kingdom authority through prayer. Otherwise Are we to assume that 1st century Jews only had access to the kingdom and through prayer Jews could invoke Gods Kingdom and will be done? That is an authority given to Christians being heirs, being sons and daughters we now have some say In praying down Gods Kingdom to earth as it is in heaven.

“Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven”
 
F

FollowingtheWay

Guest
#20
I believe this has nothing to do with our security in the Kingdom but has all to do with the attitude of the heart in which one is praying it. Prayer is at its heart a form of worship. Thinking of the sermon Where it’s said

“But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5‬:‭22‬-‭24‬ ‭ESV‬‬

I believe he’s after our heart attitude in prayer regarding the following and if we harbor that unforgiving heart We will have to give an account for it at the Bema seat

“For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”