Pre-Trib vs Post Trib and 1 Thess. 4:15

Many pre-tribbers like to point to 1Thess 4:16-18, but leave out the preceding verse 15. Here is the full context of His Second Coming:
1Th. 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
1Th. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
1Th. 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Th. 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th. 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
1Th. 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The underlined portion has given me much to think about as a pre-tribulation rapture believer. I want to consider everything.
But as I read this, it sounds as if the text means to say that AT His second coming, the ones who survive the tribulation will not go up to meet Jesus in the clouds (be raptured) until the dead rise first. This looks as though the rapture starts at the second coming.

It's a timing issue of the rapture that I'm concerned about. Am I misinterpreting this?

Can someone explain this to me?

Hope this helps:

In God's Context of ( earthly ) prophecy / covenants / law, to Israel, there are
Two prophesied 'Comings' all the way to the earth, or First And Second Advents

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

In God's Other Context Of His ( Heavenly ) "Revelation Of The Mystery"
there is One ( Secret ) Coming for The Body Of Christ, meeting Him,
"in the air" to go to Heaven - More here:

God's Great GRACE Departure! (No way to know "the timing," as this is
'Imminent' = "Could Happen at any moment!" )

Amen.

The Dead In Christ get their Bodies slightly before we do. It all happens in "The Twinkling of an Eye" Instantaneous.

Additionally ....that section specifically names those "in Christ" or "in Jesus" ....that is not a reference to OT believers prior to the administration of grace as those terms "in Christ" or "in Jesus" are only in reference to the Church of God. Neither of those terms or anything relating to that (i.e. in Him) are used in the gospels, OT or Revelation.

Yes i have believed for a long time that the Rapture happens on the day of the second coming of the LORD Jesus... Other rapture scriptures talk of the last trumpet being the time of the rapture.. And we know the sounding of a trumpet will be heard at the second coming of the LORD..

(1 Corinthians 15:51-55) "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, {52} In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. {53} For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. {54} So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. {55} O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

(1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. {18} Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

My view on this

No --------this is not talking about the Second Coming ------this scripture is about the Rapture of the saints before the Tribulation comes upon this earth -----

In the Second coming Jesus comes with the Saints ------and Jesus sends angels to gather up the people who have received Jesus as their Lord during the Tribulation -------- Matthew 24


All scripture should be read in context so please do so by yourselves ----I am just posting these scriptures ---

Jude 14-15---this describes the second coming ---All Saints have to be in heaven for this to take place -----


New King James Version

14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,

15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.



Matthew 24:31----this is describing the Second Coming -----

Amplified Bible
And He will send His angels with A LOUD TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect (God’s chosen ones) from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.


I say
Also verses 40-41 of Matthew also pertains to the second Coming ------this is actually where Jesus separates the Sheep from the Goats -----verses 40-41 below

The Day and Hour Unknown
36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father.

37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;

39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.

41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

I say
So here we see one taken and one left -------so above it states the angels are sent to gather the elect ----so the one taken is the elect and the one left is the unsaved person ------as the Scripture itself answers that for us ----



Matthew 24:31 ------here we see the angels are to gather the saved people

And He will send His angels with A LOUD TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect (God’s chosen ones) from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.


So looking at the scripture it is a pretrib Rapture -----

now some scripture does not say Saints come with Jesus --it says Holy ones and many believe that could be angels ----but if you look up the word Holy in the Greek it is ---

Strong's Concordance
hagios: sacred, holy
Original Word: ἅγιος, ία, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: hagios
Phonetic Spelling: (hag'-ee-os)
Definition: sacred, holy
Usage: set apart by (or for) God, holy, sacred.

hágios – properly, different (unlike), other ("otherness"), holy; for the believer, 40 (hágios) means "likeness of nature with the Lord" because "different from the world."

So holy ones in the scripture refer to the Saints ---not angels ----as some think --

here is the ESV ----which says holy ones -----


Jude 14-15

English Standard Version

14 It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones,

15 to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

This is Commentary on this -----read all for yourselves ---I am just posting this part -----

Notice we see the armies in heaven are Clothed with white linen ---angels are Spirits and don't need clothes -----the Saints have resurrected bodies and are clothed in White --------

https://enduringword.com/will-jesus-return-with-angels-or-saints-live-qa-for-october-6-2022/

WILL JESUS RETURN WITH ANGELS OR SAINTS?
From Erin-

So when pastors say that these armies are the returning armies of saints, how do we know they’re just not angels? It’s an excellent question. This interpretation of Revelation 19:14 is pretty much all based on Jude 1:14-15.

Revelation 19:14 – And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.

Jude 1:14-15a – Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all…

Jude 1:14-15a pretty clearly tells us that Jesus is returning with the armies of His saints to execute vengeance. Now, you’re absolutely right in saying that most of the time when the Bible talks about the hosts of the Lord, or heavenly armies, it’s talking about angelic armies. But not in this case. I’m not going to get into the whole thing about the Book of Enoch right now. But Jude, quoting Enoch, lets us know that these are armies of His saints.

thanks for all of your replies, I will read them all again tomorrow, as it's night time here and time for bed. I appreciate everyone taking the time to answer.

That is exactly what it says in plain english. And yes the rapture happens at the second coming, cause that is when the resurrection happens. (The First resurrection, look at Revelation 20 for reference, Jesus returns in Revelation 19, and in Rev 20 there is a resurrection described)

The only way the pre-trib system works is if someone injects that into your mind. If you read the Bible in prison with no indoctrination from dispensational preachers, you will come out a post-tribber. You can also compare these:


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

To me this also is crystal clear friend, when does the believer gain rest? WHEN the Lord Jesus returns in flaming fire taking vengeance on them who dont obey the Gospel, now clearly this again would be at the second coming.

This is why it is so funny to me seeing all the graphs that list the differences between the second coming and the rapture that say things like "there is wrath in the second coming, but the rapture is a blessed hope"... Its so unnecessary when there we have in Thessalonians EXACTLY the same thing, the second coming is a BLESSING to the believer yet a day of horror for the unbeliever.

I would also throw in Matthew 24:29-31 where Jesus returns AFTER the tribulation

The saints DONT have to be in heaven for SEVEN YEARS for Jude 1:14-15 to be fulfilled. The Lord does rapture us to MEET HIM in the air, and then we escort him down to earth, as the people escort an arriving KING-

And Jesus will return with both the saints AND angels: Jude 1:14-15 has the saints covered and Matthew 25:31 has the angels covered: “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. "

What you say here makes no sense -----Better know the meaning of escort ------

escort-----meaning ----from dictionary .com
a group of persons, or a single person, accompanying another or others for protection, guidance, or courtesy:

I say --- Jesus needing an Escort to accompany Him to Earth -----




We are to be Rightly Dividing the Word ---not Twisting the Word to suit what we think -------

Rightly dividing gets you through 4th grade to fifth grade.

"will not precede", is just the exact order of things.. however the rapture is right after that.. I imagine it like this:

Christ is given the word from the Father to begin His descent.. the souls of the first resurrection are given their eternal incorruptible body.. these start to follow Christ on His descent.. then, those that are still on Earth start going through the same process, receiving their incorruptible body, except they are not descending, but ascending.. both groups join together in the air with the Lord.. then the Lord with these Saints (resurrected + raptured) descend into the battle of Armageddon..

Now we could also say that the souls receive their incorruptible body BEFORE Christ starts His descent, but even then the Rapture is very close behind..

The righteous dead, who awaited the appearance of Christ but never beheld Him, received the gospel when Jesus preached to them while they were in the prison of Death.

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison..."

The gospel of God, delivered by Christ, would have served as their ticket out of the bondage of Death. As evidence, this is recorded:

"When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. 51At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people."

To note: it reads "many saints" not "all saints" so this was just some.
Also, they could only appear after Jesus' resurrection. Jesus died a man but was raised a Life-giving Spirit, The Christ. Only The Christ can have many members for His body.

OT saints (saints = sanctified or set apart) may have been included in this sign of resurrection. The parameters of this occurrence do not exclude them.

Therefore, the resurrection of the OT saints at Christ's return is inevitable, since they have already received the gospel of God while in prison.

That's what I understand.

Lazarus was raised also earlier, but I assume he was not raised into the eternal, incorruptible body.. so as with these saints you mention.. they were probably for a sign, but "sleept" again later.. for they neither stayed here on Earth until Christ's return, nor ascended into Heaven as Jesus.. Both the rapture and the first-resurrections talks of a different type of event.. there the souls are getting their new eternal bodies..

Lazarus was raised before there was a body of Christ into which to fit. The saints who arose after Jesus arose as the Christ would have had a place to fit. What happened to them after the event is not known.

Still, the authority Death had over the OT saints was done away with by the resurrection of Jesus.

"...Death is swallowed up in victory." 1Cor 15v54, is taken from Isaiah 25v6-9 (v8), which refers to the "Marriage supper of the Lamb" (in v6) with Rev 19v6-9, the judgement upon the Devil and his evil angels, (v7) with Matt 25v41, Rev 20v1-3, "death swallowed up forever" the resurrection, (v8) with Rev 11v15-18, "wipe away tears from all faces," (v8) with Rev 7v9-17, "the rebuke of His people (IsraeL) He will take away from the earth," (v8) with Rom 11v25-27, Zech 8v23.

ALL these things occur at Christ's Second Coming on the last day of this age when He comes to destroy the wicked, take His people home and set up the Millennium Kingdom!

There is NO (secret) pre-tribulation advent and rapture...period. The Lord Jesus said it was only false prophets and teachers who taught such destructive heresy, and that He would come in great power and glory, with every eye seeing Him! Matt 24v23-31, Rev 1v7

The only ones being raptured or caught up in this text are the saints who are yet alive when Christ and the dead in Christ make their descent from heaven to this earth. There is no about face back to heaven anywhere in this text. That is something that people have been conditioned to read into the text.

Ask yourself this question:

Why would the dead in Christ who are returning from heaven with Christ suddenly need glorified bodies in heaven which is what the pre-tribbers are forced to believe?

Paul told us why the saints need glorified bodies.

1 Corinthians 15:50-55

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

The saints need glorified bodies because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God which is coming to this earth at Christ's second coming. If Paul was here referring to to the kingdom of God in heaven, then he would be a liar because many saints are presently in heaven without glorified bodies.

Also, this all transpires at the last trump or trumpet, so I would encourage you to compare what Paul said here with what happens when the 7th or last trumpet sounds in the book of Revelation.

Revelation 10:7

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Revelation 11:15-18

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

At the sounding of the last or 7th trumpet, the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ, or the kingdom of God comes to this earth like Jesus taught his disciples to pray that it would. This is the time of the dead, and not 7 years prior, and this is when God's servants receive their rewards.

Some of us have 'been conditioned' by "What Saith The Scripture, God's Word Of
Truth, Rightly Divided":

God's Great GRACE Departure! ♫ 😇 ↑

Amen.

I hope so. If such is the case, then where is the about face back to heaven in the portion of scripture from 1 Thessalonians 4 that was referenced? It simply is not there.

Precious friend, some particulars of God's Great GRACE Departure may not be found
in one lone single verse, but will be found in the Bigger Picture of God's
"Revelation Of The Mystery" (Romans - Philemon) - i.e.:

(2 Corinthians 5:1-2; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 1:20: Ephesians 2:6;
Philippians 3:20; Colossians 1:5)


Amen.