is Luke 21:28 referring to the rapture or Jesus' second coming

^ @selahsays,

The "false claimants" of verse 2 were the ones saying the TRIB is already present (already unfolding upon the earth, over some time [PERFECT indicative]); and Paul is saying, don't you believe such a deception, IT AIN'T TRUE, and here's WHY.



I'm not claiming it.
The "false claimants" Paul is talking about IN VERSE 2 were[!!!]... and why Paul is addressing this in a letter to the Thessalonians [and to us], to not be deceived by said "false claim".




The problem (when reading this text) comes in when, 1) people mis-define what "the DOTL" is (v.2, in the false claim) and WHEN it commences [solved by reading 1Th5:1-3 and understanding that it ARRIVES "exactly as [hosper] the INITIAL "birth pang [SINGULAR]" that Jesus had already spoken about: Matt24:4/Mk13:5<--WELL-BEFORE Christ's return to the earth / 2nd Coming to the earth]; and 2) conflating THIS Subject of the FALSE CLAIM ("the DOTL") with that of Paul's Subject (v.1) he is BRINGING TO BEAR on such a "false claim" by his reiterating the SEQUENCE between these two DISTINCT items (and also repeating THIS SEQUENCE 3x in this text).







The sentence does NOT read, nor convey, (as you suggest) "before Jesus' RETURN" (such and such must happen first). No.

Rather, before the statement "the day of the Lord [i.e. the TRIB] IS PRESENT" can be stated truthfully / accurately. The "false claimants" were saying it was already present. It wasn't.

^ @selahsays,

See, already you are disregarding what Paul had previously stated about WHEN "the DOTL" ARRIVES... by your incorrectly stating it is at "the Second Coming" (Rev19).

Get this point correct ^ (as I've pointed out in the previous posts), and you will be moving more closely to what it is that Paul is actually conveying in this 2Th2 text.




["dinga-ling"! I HEAR you! trackin' with ya, see!]

Not that "Jesus' RETURN" had already happened, which is what you are suggesting is what the "matter" was that Paul is addressing here (concerning the "false claim" of verse 2). It wasn't that, as you suggest.

Paul is addressing the matter of a false claim purporting that "THE DAY OF THE LORD IS PRESENT"... that the TRIB had already ARRIVED and had already been unfolding in their present experience FOR SOME TIME.

Not that "Jesus' RETURN" had already happened, which is what you are suggesting is what the "matter" was that Paul is addressing here (concerning the "false claim" of verse 2). It wasn't that, as you suggest.

I never suggested that! Please re-read my initial post regarding 2 Thes. 2:1-4. It’s very clear.



"The day of the Lord" COMMENCES at SEAL #1 (not at Christ's Second Coming to the earth SEVEN YEARS AFTER THAT POINT, see). This is your first mis-step in the correct understanding of this passage and what Paul is actually conveying here.

But, believe as you wish, SELAH. = )

@BeeBlessed,

I'm not saying that selahsays is suggesting that Jesus' return has already happened.

What I'm pointing out is, that this is what the sentence (in the "false claim") in v.2 would have to be ABOUT, in order for the text to be conveying what selahsays is suggesting it says (but it doesn't).



Determine WHAT the content of the false claim in v.2 IS ABOUT, and you will begin to grasp WHAT Paul is addressing ABOUT IT, and what SEQUENCE he is reiterating (between the two distinct items: his Subject (v.1) he is bringing to BEAR ON the Subject of the false claim in v.2): regarding "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]" false claim (v.2)...


... not about "the day of the Lord [i.e. SECOND COMING] is present" (as the "false claim" in v.2)... No.




The matter Paul is addressing is the content OF THE FALSE CLAIM.

THAT (the DOTL / TRIB-aspect [7yr period]) is what "will not be PRESENT, if not shall have come [ONE THING] *FIRST* *and* the man of sin BE REVEALED..." (he's "revealed" at SEAL #1... NOT when he LATER "SITTETH in the temple of God" at MID-Trib, NO!)

Paul says that "the day of the Lord" ARRIVES "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth pang [singular]" that comes upon a woman with child; Jesus spoke of that very thing in Matthew 24:4 / Mark 13:5 ("the beginning of birth pangs [plural]"), when He said, "[G5100 - tis] A CERTAIN ONE..." (beware of 'a certain one'... bringing deception)

^ Like I said in my Post #30, Paul had already written to the Thessalonians in his first letter, and there states...



... So, no. The "false claim" was not concerning what would take place / commence at the END of the Trib.

It concerns what will commence and unfold upon the earth starting at SEAL #1 (that is its ARRIVAL point in time, and the "false claimants" were purporting that that had ALREADY--at some point in the past--arrived... that is, "[it] IS PRESENT [perfect indicative... That's what "perfect indicative" means]"...

... the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" that comes upon a woman with child (1TH5:1-3!).

Many more "birth pangs [plural]" follow on from that initial birth pang and all together (all of those) lead up TO His Second Coming to the earth--which will still be "the DOTL," as will the entire MK age; but His Second Coming is not when the DOTL commences. It starts well-prior to that point. And the "false claimants" (per v.2) were purporting that it was already present (here and unfolding upon the earth)... meaning, the Trib years.

Which would be a completely "believable" thing for them to have been persuaded was TRUE, given the negative circumstances they were at that time enduring, per 2Th1:4! (per context)

Title

[ @selahsays 's Post #55]


All of the following marks the START / ARRIVAL of "the day of the Lord" earthly-located time period (aka TRIB-aspect):

--Paul says in 1Th5:1-3, that the DOTL's ARRIVAL is "exactly like" the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" that comes upon a woman with child (not at the END of those abundance of "birth pangs," see); Paul is referring to that which JESUS had spoken of in His Olivet Discourse;

--the INITIAL one of those that Jesus listed (of "the BEGINNING of birth pangs [plural]") is: "A CERTAIN ONE [G5100 - tis]," i.e. "A CERTAIN ONE" bringing deception ("For there shall be MANY..." but ONE IN PARTICULAR is the one that "kicks off" that specific, future, limited time-period we commonly call the TRIB [the ARRIVAL and 7-yr aspect of "the DOTL" time-period in its entirety], i.e. 7-yr period leading up to Christ's "return" to the earth at Rev19; v.2's "false claim" was concerning THIS, purporting that it "IS PRESENT");

--"the BEGINNING of birth pangs" ARE the "SEALS" of Rev6, so the INITIAL ONE of those birth pangs or Seal #1 is: the rider of the white horse with a "BOW" ('bow' often meaning 'deception'... aka the AC / man of sin, at the "kick-off" point of the 7-yr period);

--the "whose COMING / ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / PAROUSIA" of the man of sin "IN HIS TIME" (2Th2:9a; 2Th2:6);

--[which likewise corresponds with] Daniel 9:27a's "FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs]" (when he will "confirm the covenant with the many" at the START of that future 7-yr period);



All of this (and more) is the biblical evidence that "the DOTL" (the Subject of the "false claim" in v.2) was about the false claimants "purporting that the Day of the Lord [the Tribulation aspect] IS PRESENT," in other words, had already started and had been playing out already for some amount of time (that includes ALL OF THE ABOVE, plus further "birth pangs" which follow on from that initial moment, as well).

This is what Paul was covering (his "corrective" to such a "false claim"--he's not wanting them to be deceived by).













Also, there is no evidence that the "false claimants" (of whatever stripe, in whatever form, Paul says) had access to Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians and had supposedly BASED their false claim on anything that Paul had written therein, either (not that I agree that anything in his first letter says what you're suggesting it does--I do not).