How to love your family, when God hates the nonelects?

Don't mind embarrassment. If for all these years I have given people false hope of heaven, embarrassing me is the least of the problem. I don't know how I visit a thousand churches to tell them I was wrong...

ThereRoseaLamb,

Don't mind embarrassment. If for all these years I have given people false hope of heaven, embarrassing me is the least of the problem. I don't know how I visit a thousand churches to tell them I was wrong...[/QUOTE]

Ok, so you want me to show you. I will by taking one point at a time and pointing out

[Iconoclast said:
For any who are so challenged that they are mystified when the confessional statements are given, with comments that confuse you.
I will post only two sections of the 1689 confession of faith so you have no excuse to claim you could not find it.

Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;

That can't be true. If God has hardened the non elects heart, how can He blame them for doing what He created them to do. ]

1] This quote says nothing about hardening anyone's heart

2]You are saying A Perfect God is not able to be in complete control of what He alone created?

3] Do you have a God who is not in complete control of all things?

4] Why do you depart from scripture by sinfully suggesting God created man sinful?

5] Here are the words of God at creation;
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

6] Your mistaken comments, which you have posted a few times now, suggest that God created them to sin!

7] you are blaming God for man's sin. That is just the opposite of the confessional statement which says;
[yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;]

8]If you are going to try and refute the confessional statement and offer what you think is a correction, do not misrepresent it by a strawman.
now we will go to the next statement.

pt2

[Iconoclast said:
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
TRL says
Right, God knowing the future doesn't mean He meddles in it. ]

1] TRL as I read your comments I want to pause as I do not think you mean to do it, But i think it is profane to suggest or mention that You do not think our Lord God, and Creator does not. or can not "meddle" in our world, our future???

2{ TRL, do you believe in the god of deism? He wound up the clock, and then just let's it run by itself?
I believe scripture teaches God is in complete control of whatsoever comes to pass, as even the events of the cross ae described as being;
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

3] God is not just a spectator who waits and watches......He controls and determines every movement of every Atom and things cannot happen unless God ordains it to come to pass. Notice, I did not say God CAUSES sin, or evil. man and Satan do that.
What I and others say is it is not outside of God's control...many biblical examples of this///it is beyond question.

4] God controls the length of our life, and the time of our death. God controls the weather, God controls angelic beings.
psa.139
139 O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.

2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.

3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.

4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether.

5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

pt3

Iconoclast said:
3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
trl, posts;
[Ah, so satan didn't fall from his position in heaven of his own volition, that was Gods fault. And he didn't tempt Eve, she was just doing what God created her to do.]

1}The confessional statement is speaking of elect men, and elect angels....not Satan.

2] We can get to your other questions and comments, but this is not speaking of Satan is it? They quote verses that speak of ELECT men, and angels
3] Nowhere in any reformed confession do they suggest that God causes, sin or rebellion. Why do you and others run to such a suggestion?

4] Once again you suggest EVE was created to sin, by God??? Gen 1:31 does not allow you to say such a thing? Why do you do this?

5] TRL, I am not here to hurt you and welcome your questions, but we will move forward on solid footing if you directly quote the confessional statement, stick to the language and offer specific points on the actual wording. The men who put the confession together carefully worded what they wrote. Take a good look and be as careful when you offer on it.

pt4.
Iconoclast said:
5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.

[So what I'm hearing is God saves people against their will and dooms other against their will. Like a fat mean kid with a magnifying glass that sizzles ants on the sidewalk, thats basically Calvins view of God.]

1] Where do you hear God saves people, against their will? Where does this mention man's will?

2] Where does it say God "dooms" people "against their will"?

3} Calvin is not mentioned here, is he? I do see the free grace and love of God mentioned.

4] deal with the confession of faith, that is the topic, not Calvin

pt5;

Iconoclast said:
6._____ neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.

[We got it, God, for no reason, choose certain people to be the elect. And we don't know who is elect or why. We don't even know for sure if the elect will be saved. Sounds like a game of cosmic Russian roulette.]

1] Again, do you believe God does anything for "no Reason"?

2]Do you know the biblical God, who does all He intends to do Isa46;
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying,
My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea,
I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

3] Every Elect person will be saved. No God does not tell us WHO they are, but ALL will come to Jesus and believe

God's eternal purpose is certain, not roulette

pt3
Hello E, you are welcome to offer on this also, what do you have on this? Give your biblical offering!

"ThereRoseaLamb,

[Nope, Bible doesn't teach it. How could God just pick at random these three live, those three die. That's no different than what Hitler did to the Jews.]

In departing from biblical truth, suggesting a Perfect God who knows all, does anything random, is just plain stupid, and profane. You are speaking about our Perfect Lord as if he is a mere man, this is horrid on your part.

[So you have to get saved before you're saved like some doggone twice baked potato. Got it.]

I guess you are trying to be "cute" and funny, but explain how a dead sinner comes to life without God.

{ And non elect infants, go straight to hell?]

Where does the confession say that??? Can you read? or do you just want to make ungodly statements?

[Don't pass go, don't collect a hundred dollars? Just what makes an infant "non elect"? Could someone explain that one to me?]
Where does it say that? The confessional statement is biblically accurate and perfectly written


[4._____ Others not elected,
1]although they may be called by the ministry of the Word,
2]and may have some common operations of the Spirit,
3]yet not being effectually drawn by the Father,
4]they neither will nor can truly come to Christ,
5]and therefore cannot be saved:
6]much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved;
7]be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
Nope again, Bible doesn't teach it.]

The bible teaches all 7 0f these points, by direct scriptures. You once again post contrary to scripture and offer foolish statements instead.


[Nowhere does the Bible teach that a person cannot be born again, unless they choose that path.]

Men are born in rebellion against God, you deny the fall and spiritual death


[God would be beyond cruel, beyond Hitler, to tell people to come to Him when he literally created people that cannot come to Him. That attacks the very heart and character of God.]

You deny scripture over and over and insist on blaming God for mans sin.

The bible does not teach fatalism.

The bib le teaches God so loved the WORLD. he gave his only begotten son. that whoever IN THAT WORLD believes ( a free will act) will never perish. but live forever.

I don’t know one Calvinist who believes they are not one of the so called elect, nor their children. It’s always other people. When in reality, they could never know.

[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

"Everlasting-Grace,
[The bible does not teach fatalism.]
That is correct, It teaches about a Holy, Just, and loving God, who has a plan andpurpose that he has determined to come to pass

[The bib le teaches God so loved the WORLD. he gave his only begotten son. that whoever IN THAT WORLD believes ( a free will act) will never perish. but live forever.]

Sadly, free will does not exist, however it is true, that every believing one, will not perish, but have life everlasting

Only "True Believers" inherit the kingdom of heaven.

What you propose is called fatalism.
Sadly for you free will does exist..

In fact. Jesus himself said it is the plan of the father that whoever sees and believes will have eternal life

1 John 5:13 says we can know...whether Calvinist or anything else.

Elect is a biblical term meaning to service. Yes, because I am in Christ, I have been elected to serve him. There is not such doctrine as God elected some elite group to salvation and the rest he chose not to give salvation.

Only "True Believers" inherit the kingdom of heaven.

Only when its done in U.S. Presidential elections.

The kingdom of heaven is the earthly kingdom of Jesus Christ when he reigns on the throne of David in Jerusalem.