Nicodemus

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Omegatime

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#1
John 3: 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him.”

Question I have, wasn't Nicodemus already a believer in Jesus and the Lord wasnt teaching how to be saved?

Your thoughts
 
L

Locoponydirtman

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#2
John 3: 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him.”

Question I have, wasn't Nicodemus already a believer in Jesus and the Lord wasnt teaching how to be saved?

Your thoughts
Nicodemus, was a mam trying to make sense of what was going on. I certainly Hope he was saved.
 

Edify

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Jan 27, 2021
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#3
It's all in the context.....

2This man came to Jesusa by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.c 7Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘Youd must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” 9Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. 12If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
 

Cameron143

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#4
John 3: 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him.”

Question I have, wasn't Nicodemus already a believer in Jesus and the Lord wasnt teaching how to be saved?

Your thoughts
It's hard to say definitively, but I would lean to him not being saved before their discussion. The evidence for me is that his understanding was merely natural and not spiritual. When he was told he needed to be born again, he responded concerning a natural birth.
This wasn't uncommon and the gospel of John is rife with examples.

Chapter 2...the people wanted to make Jesus king, not recognizing His kingdom is not of this world.

Chapter 3...Nicodemus.

Chapter 4...the woman at the well who was wondering where the physical place was where worship should be, not realizing worship is in spirit and truth.

Chapter 5...the disciples who didn't realize Jesus food was spiritual and to do the will of the Father.

Chapter 6...the people wanted to know what the works of God were so they could do them, not realizing the work of God was merely to believe.

Nicodemus no doubt realized the works Jesus did as those only God could do. But he didn't seem to understand that salvation would never come by the law but by a supernatural transaction between God and an individual. But he was drawn to Christ and I think he probably got saved.

All that to say...it was most certainly about salvation. Nicodemus may not have started there, but Jesus clearly took him there.
 

Webers.Home

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#5
.
John 3:5-6 . . . Most truly I say to you: Unless anyone is born from water
and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. What has been born
from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the Spirit is spirit.

Some years ago I asked an experienced Jehovah's Witness if he was born of
the Spirit. He answered no, plus added that he did not expect to undergo a
spirit birth in either this life or the next because his hope is a kingdom on
Earth.

My friend was somehow unaware that everything Jesus and Nicodemus
discussed in John 3:3-8 pertained to earthly things.

John 3:12 . . . If I have told you earthly things and yet you do not believe,
how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

In other words: the kingdom of God, to which the spirit birth pertains, will
be on Earth rather than up in Heaven.

It's both tragic and ironic that the Watchtower Society's rank and file door to
door missionaries go worldwide advertising a kingdom that they themselves
will never be allowed to enter: not because they didn't work hard enough to
deserve it, but simply because they were led to believe themselves exempt
from the spirit-birth requirement.
_
 

Omegatime

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#6
Don't you find it strange that Jesus never mentioned the born again slogan again. Nor the apostles, or their disciples, nor any church or writing in the next 1900 years.

The greek word "anothen" for again or anew can also be from above. I believe Yeshua was teaching the resurrection
 

JohnRH

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Mar 5, 2018
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#7
Don't you find it strange that Jesus never mentioned the born again slogan again. Nor the apostles, or their disciples, nor any church or writing in the next 1900 years.

The greek word "anothen" for again or anew can also be from above. I believe Yeshua was teaching the resurrection
Born again isn't a 'slogan', it's a spiritual dynamic testified of in Scripture. Jesus, Peter, John, Paul, and James testified of it. All believers in the Lord Jesus Christ are born again in this lifetime. It's not the resurrection. It's something that has already happened to these believers:

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God ... Which were born ... of God. John 1:12-13 (KJV)

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. Gal 6:15 (KJV)

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) Eph 2:5 (KJV)

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5 (KJV)

Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. James 1:18 (KJV)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1 Peter 1:3 (KJV)

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God 1 Peter 1:22-23 (KJV)

If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. 1 John 2:29 (KJV)

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9 (KJV)

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: 1 John 5:1 (KJV)

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself ... 1 John 5:18 (KJV)
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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#8
Don't you find it strange that Jesus never mentioned the born again slogan again. Nor the apostles, or their disciples, nor any church or writing in the next 1900 years.

The greek word "anothen" for again or anew can also be from above. I believe Yeshua was teaching the resurrection
While I agree with you that anothen should be translated "from above" in John 3, but I also believe you have gone too far away from the context of the opening verses by wrongly claiming that the term "born from above" refers to the resurrection in John 3.

This is from the NET Bible, a footnote which explains the meanings of the word anothen, which is from John 3:3:

H. "The word ἄνωθεν (anōthen) has a double meaning, either “again” (in which case it is synonymous with παλίν [palin]) or “from above” (BDAG 92 s.v. ἄνωθεν). This is a favorite technique of the author of the Fourth Gospel, and it is lost in almost all translations at this point. John uses the word 5 times, in 3:3, 7; 3:31; 19:11 and 23. In the latter 3 cases the context makes clear that it means “from above.” Here (3:3, 7) it could mean either, but the primary meaning intended by Jesus is “from above.” Nicodemus apparently understood it the other way, which explains his reply, “How can a man be born when he is old? He can’t enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born, can he?” The author uses the technique of the “misunderstood question” often to bring out a particularly important point: Jesus says something which is misunderstood by the disciples or (as here) someone else, which then gives Jesus the opportunity to explain more fully and in more detail what he really meant."

This shows that the post above is wrong, as John used it 5 times in his gospel, throughout his book. To say nothing of the fact that the concept of being born from above appears many times in the NT! Unfortunately, because so many translations use the wrong translation of anothen, the phrase "born again" has become a trite way of expressing the miracle of the new birth from above!

Reading the first part of John 3:1-7, there is no mention of Jesus' resurrection, or in the rest of the chapter, esp to verse 21, which ends this section, for that matter!

1 Now a certain man, a Pharisee named Nicodemus, who was a member of the Jewish ruling council, 2 came to Jesus at night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus replied, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born from above,[h] he cannot see the kingdom of God.”[i] 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb and be born a second time, can he?”
5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit,[l] he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must all be born from above.’" John 3:1-7 NET

I left some of the footnote references in, because I am directly quoting them.

Please note that in verse 7, Jesus says, "You must ALL be born from above!" How could he be speaking of the resurrection, when he is addressing everyone, and saying that they must ALL be born from above? This is a confirmation he is speaking of the new birth, where God in heaven works through the Holy Spirit, who comes from above and gives us the gift of grace through faith, and we are born of the Spirit into the Kingdom of God!

For those wondering about verse 7 and "the Kingdom of God," this footnote gives a good explanation!

I. "The kingdom of God is a major theme of Jesus’ teaching. The nature of the kingdom of God in the NT and in Jesus’ teaching has long been debated by interpreters and scholars, with discussion primarily centering around the nature of the kingdom (earthly, heavenly, or both) and the kingdom’s arrival (present, future, or both). An additional major issue concerns the relationship between the kingdom of God and the person and work of Jesus himself. But what does Jesus’ statement about not being able to see the kingdom of God mean within the framework of John’s Gospel? John uses the word kingdom (βασιλεία, basileia) only 5 times (3:3, 5; 18:36 [3x]). Only here is it qualified with the phrase of God. The fact that John does not stress the concept of the kingdom of God does not mean it is absent from his theology, however. Remember the messianic implications found in John 2, both the wedding and miracle at Cana and the cleansing of the temple. For Nicodemus, the term must surely have brought to mind the messianic kingdom which Messiah was supposed to bring. But Nicodemus had missed precisely this point about who Jesus was. It was the Messiah himself with whom Nicodemus was speaking. Whatever Nicodemus understood, it is clear that the point is this: He misunderstood Jesus’ words. He over-literalized them, and thought Jesus was talking about repeated physical birth, when he was in fact referring to new spiritual birth."

Finally, another footnote explains again the importance of being "born from above," in terms of the Spirit, which again confirms this passage is about the process of justification during salvation. It is not speaking of the resurrrction at all! (However, the resurrection is a vital part of the gospel, but it is not being referred to in John 3!)

L. "Or “born of water and wind” (the same Greek word, πνεύματος [pneumatos], may be translated either “spirit/Spirit” or “wind”). Jesus’ somewhat enigmatic statement points to the necessity of being born “from above,” because water and wind/spirit/Spirit come from above. Isaiah 44:3-5 and Ezek 37:9-10 are pertinent examples of water and wind as life-giving symbols of the Spirit of God in his work among people. Both occur in contexts that deal with the future restoration of Israel as a nation prior to the establishment of the messianic kingdom. It is therefore particularly appropriate that Jesus should introduce them in a conversation about entering the kingdom of God. Note that the Greek word πνεύματοςis anarthrous (has no article) in v. 5. This does not mean that spirit in the verse should be read as a direct reference to the Holy Spirit, but that both water and wind are figures (based on passages in the OT, which Nicodemus, the teacher of Israel should have known) that represent the regenerating work of the Spirit in the lives of men and women."

PS I rarely copy & post footnotes, because they can be a reflection of the personal theology of the individual or translation committee writing the explanations in the footnotes. However, these notes are well written & accurate, in my opinion. It also saves me the time of another long winded explanation!
 

Omegatime

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#9
You dont answer the the real question? How does one see the Kingdom of God. Isnt tne Kingdom of God the 1000 reign??

Nicodemus thought maybe one could be born of the flesh again but do not the scriptures say--Flesh and blood can not enter the Kingdom of God

50 I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Should have been translated==To see the Kingdom of God one must be born from above
 

Angela53510

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Jan 24, 2011
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#10
You dont answer the the real question? How does one see the Kingdom of God. Isnt tne Kingdom of God the 1000 reign??

Nicodemus thought maybe one could be born of the flesh again but do not the scriptures say--Flesh and blood can not enter the Kingdom of God

50 I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
If you are speaking to me, you obviously did not read my post thoroughly where my quote of footnote explains the Kingdom.

Further, the Kingdom of God is now and not yet! As for the Kingdom of God only being only 1000 years long, I see you have bought into the lie of a "millennium," which appears as 1000 years or in Greek as the word chilia, or χίλια, in Rev 20. As I have said so many times, you can't make a doctrine of a word which only appears in one chapter of the Bible, albeit 6 times. That is bad hermeneutics. So many wrong or poor doctrines come from no understanding of Biblical interpretation, esp where eschatology is concerned.

Further, as I already said, John 3:1-7 is about soteriology, or how we are saved. It has nothing to do with eschatology, other than we are born from above into the Kingdom of God. Since the Holy Spirit has given the gift of grace through faith since the time of Jesus, and even in the OT, to today, obviously the Kingdom has lasted much longer already than 1000 years, although we have not yet experienced the fullness of the Kingdom, until Jesus returns at the Second Coming!

"Jesus replied, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3

Since we are born from above when we believe & repent, we are in the Kingdom of God from the moment we are saved! This was a major platform of Jesus coming! He came to establish the Kingdom of God, by living and performing signs, teaching & preaching, then dying on the cross, the gospel also proclaims that Jesus was raised from the dead on the third day, and he ascended back to heaven per Luke 24 & Acts 1!

Here are 2 articles to read! As Sam Storms says, there are three eschatological views with the concept of the "now & not yet," or the "already and not yet" understanding of the Kingdom of God:
1. Historic Premillennialism
2. Post-Millennialism
3. Amillennialism

Only Dispensationalism misinterprets the Kingdom of God. If you have only been taught Dispensationalism, some of these concepts maybe new to you, but they really do answer the questions concerning the Kingdom of God. That is probably part of your confusion!

https://www.samstorms.org/all-articles/post/the-kingdom-of-god:-already-but-not-yet---part-i

https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/is-the-kingdom-present-or-future
 
Jun 20, 2022
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#11
You dont answer the the real question? How does one see the Kingdom of God. Isnt tne Kingdom of God the 1000 reign??
We Pray, Your Will be done ...on Earth.....AS IT IS in Heaven...

God's Will is for His Kingdom to be come a part of those who Follow Him. So, we do already have a itsy bitsy portion of God's Kingdom here on Earth with and within us. Of course, how we experience God's Kingdom on Earth is no way going to be anything remotely the same as when we experience IT in Heaven and during the Mill Reign. But God's Kingdom has been established on Earth since the DBR and the Preaching of the Gospel [Good News] that Jesus personally Taught.

Now, how do we see it on Earth?

Ever see Miracles, Heaven itself is a Miracle of God.

When we experience true Godly love amongst one another, when we become in One Accord, when we Act as One Body, we are always seeing Glimpses of Heaven in Action from the Will of God for Our Benefit.

Ever meet an Angel? They are doing the Will of God for our Behalf and we are experiencing a little Glimpse of Heaven when we are Entertaining Them or being Helped by Them.

The Holy Spirit inside you is bringing you Glimpses of the Kingdom of God by encouraging us to Submit our will so that God's Will is unleashed to do what He desires.

so many examples here...
 

Omegatime

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#12
My apology` to Angela. I didn't really expect anybody to agree with me but when I said it concerns the resurrection that is truth to me. By the way I am premil---solid lol.
 

Webers.Home

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#13
.
The version of John 3:8 below is deliberately misquoted. Watch for the
revision.

The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell
where it comes from or where it is going. So it will be with everyone born of
the Spirit.


The grammatical tense of the revision indicates the Spirit-birth is yet future,
but the actual tense of Jesus' statement indicates there were Spirit-born folks
back in his day.

"The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell
where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the
Spirit."
_
 

Aaron56

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Jul 12, 2021
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#14
You dont answer the the real question? How does one see the Kingdom of God. Isnt tne Kingdom of God the 1000 reign??

"..for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit."


The Kingdom of God is a way of life characterized by being led by the Spirit. This life may also be called "eternal" because it derives its nature not from creation but from God.

Furthermore, even eternal life is precisely defined by Jesus Himself:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You. For You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent."

These truths are often in stark contrast to church teachings that say we are alive so that we can go to heaven when we die. We are actually called to be one with God in Christ. This is the ministry of reconciliation.

 

Webers.Home

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#15
.
1Cor 15:50 . . Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit
the kingdom of God

It's my understanding that the millennial phase of Messiah's theocratic
kingdom will be populated by a number of Tribulation survivors who will live
normal lives; including the raising of children who can all expect to live long
and prosper. (Isa 65:19-23)

Not everyone in the millennial phase of Messiah's theocratic kingdom will be
Spirit-born as can be readily seen by the rebellion towards the end organized
by the Devil. (Rev 20:7-9)
_
 

Omegatime

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#16
.
1Cor 15:50 . . Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit
the kingdom of God


It's my understanding that the millennial phase of Messiah's theocratic
kingdom will be populated by a number of Tribulation survivors who will live
normal lives; including the raising of children who can all expect to live long
and prosper. (Isa 65:19-23)


Not everyone in the millennial phase of Messiah's theocratic kingdom will be
Spirit-born as can be readily seen by the rebellion towards the end organized
by the Devil. (Rev 20:7-9)
_
Surely the Kingdom of God will will be populated by Tribulation survivors but are no longer saved by grace thru faith for all will know the Lord
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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#17
Question I have, wasn't Nicodemus already a believer in Jesus and the Lord wasnt teaching how to be saved?
Nicodemus was not "a believer" as such when he had that conversation with Christ. But he did recognize that Jesus was a rabbi who had come from God. Eventually Nicodemus did become a believer.
 

Omegatime

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#18
Nicodemus was not "a believer" as such when he had that conversation with Christ. But he did recognize that Jesus was a rabbi who had come from God. Eventually Nicodemus did become a believer.
I guess you are saying --Nicodemus didnt say the right words?
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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#19
Don't you find it strange that Jesus never mentioned the born again slogan again.
Nor the apostles, or their disciples, nor any church or writing in the next 1900 years.
The greek word "anothen" for again or anew can also be from above. I believe Yeshua was teaching the resurrection
John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”


John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


1 Peter 1:23
for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.


John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


John 3:8
The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know
where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”


Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh,
He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,


John 1:13
who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.



From 2 Corinthians 5:17 and Romans 6:13
:)
 

Omegatime

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#20
I better clarify--How can we say flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of God and also say Tribulation survivors will enter and raise children in the flesh?

Because even the sheep in the Sheep/goat judgement at the end of the Tribulation were not saved by grace thru faith but by works!

Those few who enter the enter the Kingdom were all unrighteous, both the sheep and the goats. Sheep and Goats are all gentiles for this is speaking of the nations and not Israel. From the time of the Day of the Lord during the bowl judgements till end of the tribulation Approx 1185 days the good works they did qualfied them to enter the Kingdom. This is most likely the care they provided the jews fleeing the antichrist at the placement of the abomination that caused desolation.

Daniel 2:44

And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand for ever;