Zionism among the Evangelicals is contradicted by Scripture

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ThereRoseaLamb

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Nehemiah6 said:
It starts with ignorance of and/or allegorizing the prophecies of the eternal Kingdom of God in the OT. After the Jews were dispersed and many went to Europe, the Europeans became Anti-Semitic. But the Reformers did not go back to the Bible regarding the future of Israel. They adopted the Catholic notions about Amillennialism and no future for Israel or the Jews.
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Absolutely, well explained. And it has come around again, evangelicals are starting to go back to preaching this. Such a pity.
 
Beckie

Beckie

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Nehemiah6 said:
It starts with ignorance of and/or allegorizing the prophecies of the eternal Kingdom of God in the OT. After the Jews were dispersed and many went to Europe, the Europeans became Anti-Semitic. But the Reformers did not go back to the Bible regarding the future of Israel. They adopted the Catholic notions about Amillennialism and no future for Israel or the Jews.
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The above is your opinion . Knowing the Jews were dispersed if simply history. As is knowing God gave into them and gave e them a king is also history. I am not reading any Biblical reasoning for your view in this post .
 
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ThereRoseaLamb

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Nehemiah6 said:
It starts with ignorance of and/or allegorizing the prophecies of the eternal Kingdom of God in the OT. After the Jews were dispersed and many went to Europe, the Europeans became Anti-Semitic. But the Reformers did not go back to the Bible regarding the future of Israel. They adopted the Catholic notions about Amillennialism and no future for Israel or the Jews.
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Martin Luther took his Antisemitic beliefs with him when broke from the Catholics. It spread like cancer through the church fathers and then as you say, to Europe.
 
Lucy-Pevensie

Lucy-Pevensie

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Beckie said:
Joh_18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Why do so many Christians want an earthly kingdom? He has told us His kingdom is not of this world.
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God has revealed his plan to establish an earthly kingdom, that's where the idea comes from.
Over-spiritualising scripture carries as much risk as over-literalising it.


In your example Jesus was talking to Pilate, a man of authority in the kingdom of the world, in this case- Rome.

In this context
"The earth" = the creation which God has told us he will redeem.
"The world" = The fallen worldy system which God has told us he will destroy.
In scripture Satan is called the "the god of this world"
It is equally true that scripture declares "the earth is The Lord's and everything in it."

"Your kindom come, your will be done, ON EARTH as it is in heaven."

Look here;

Acts 1
6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

Jesus could have corrected them if they were wrong about the coming kingdom.
He did not say there wasn't a kingdom to come, only that it wasn't for us to know times & dates.

Rev 11
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

Rev 21:3
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

Matt 25
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate them one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats
 
Beckie

Beckie

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Lucy-Pevensie said:
God has revealed his plan to establish an earthly kingdom, that's where the idea comes from.
Over-spiritualising scripture carries as much risk as over-literalising it.


In your example Jesus was talking to Pilate, a man of authority in the kingdom of the world, in this case- Rome.

In this context
"The earth" = the creation which God has told us he will redeem.
"The world" = The fallen worldy system which God has told us he will destroy.
In scripture Satan is called the "the god of this world"
It is equally true that scripture declares "the earth is The Lord's and everything in it."

"Your kindom come, your will be done, ON EARTH as it is in heaven."

Look here;

Acts 1
6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

Jesus could have corrected them if they were wrong about the coming kingdom.
He did not say there wasn't a kingdom to come, only that it wasn't for us to know times & dates.

Rev 11
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

Rev 21:3
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

Matt 25
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate them one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats
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Mat_6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Mat_4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mar_1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

I don't think He meant for us to seek a earthly throne.
Mat_6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

If His kingdom is , yet to be ,how does this verse fit
Mat_11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Did Jesus cast out devils?
Mat_12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Luk_17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Luk_17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Joh_18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
 
iamsoandso

iamsoandso

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Evmur said:
Ah no. this was the second beast.

The Beast which came out of the sea [Gentile world] is the Ac ... horrid through and through]
The second beast came out of the ground [Israel] he is a false prophet, he has the appearance of a lamb but is in cahoots with the dragon, as well as being a prophet he may also be a future Israeli political leader. He it is who will engineer the 7 year pact with Ac.

He is forerunner of Ac as John the Baptist was forerunner to Jesus.

He will cause many to believe in Ac. if it were possible he would deceive the elect. He will arrive first chronologically and ...

... I am expecting him real soon.
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It seems we are describing the same thing but seeing different details about it. It's the secular government of Israel that wanted Jesus to whip Rome,Egypt and all the other empires into submission and them to be the ones in charge of the whole earth. Even the eighth head counted among the seven that received the deadly wound from the sword(ad70) and was in the abyss when the angel explained it https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/17-8.htm The kingdom of God on earth will come like they were asking in Acts 1 and many think. First though they needed to heal that deadly wound and did so in 1948 when they made an image of it.https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/13-14.htm It seems they were so impatient waiting for Jesus to return and that New Jerusalem to descend into the earth (or the Messiah's first coming if Jewish) that they established their own to worship just as they attempted to do in the first Jewish revolt. Now make us an king to judge us like all the nations https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_samuel/8-5.htm and their king will come that is that Man of Sin...
 
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Locoponydirtman

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ThereRoseaLamb said:
It's going to sound like a broken record here but it starts with the unconditional and everlasting covenant God made. It has nothing to do with Scofield.

Unbreakable Covenant
We need to be firmly aware that the Abrahamic covenant is NOT the same as the Mosaic covenant (the Law given at Sinai), aka the “old covenant” that was superseded by the new covenant. It’s much older and deeper. Most significantly, the Mosaic covenant is conditional, but the Abrahamic covenant is unconditional. It’s secure no matter what because it’s based on God’s faithfulness to Himself, not anything man does or doesn’t do.

When God affirms the covenant with Abraham a few chapters later, He actually puts Abraham to sleep and passes between the covenant offerings Himself (Ge. 15:12-20). Traditionally, the two parties were supposed to do that together. By not letting Abraham participate and doing it all Himself, God was saying, “You’re not making any promises; I’m making all the promises, and I’m going to be faithful to this covenant because of Me, not because of you.” This is the nature of God that our faith is based on! As 2 Timothy 2:13 says, “if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.”

Jeremiah 31 makes the distinction between the new covenant and the Mosaic (not Abrahamic) covenant explicit:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt… I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people… they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”​


God contrasts the new covenant with the Mosaic covenant (the Law given when He brought them out of Egypt), not the Abrahamic covenant. The new covenant is God’s way of making Israel righteous so He can fulfill the Abrahamic covenant. Like Paul says in Romans 11:26 that “All Israel will be saved,” God says to Jeremiah that “they shall all know Me.”​
God swears that His covenant with Israel to make them a nation forever is secure.

“Thus says the LORD, who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the LORD of hosts is his name: ‘If this fixed order departs from before me, declares the LORD, then shall the offspring of Israel cease from being a nation before me forever.’ Thus says the LORD: ‘If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below can be explored, then I will cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done, declares the LORD.'”​

Replacement theology argues that because the majority of Israel rejected Jesus, God not only judged them with the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD but has permanently divorced them from being His people. In Jeremiah, God rejects this in the strongest terms, saying that He will never cast off Israel because of their sin.

Israel has been waiting for this promised King, the Anointed One, to come reign on David’s throne in Jerusalem, bring perfect peace to those who dwell in the land of Israel, and bring blessing to the nations by establishing the kingdom of God on earth forever. No wonder they were confused by Jesus’ first coming! They weren’t wrong; God just had a different timing than they were expecting. But He will come again, and He will do all He said.

Land
Abraham and his descendants will permanently inherit the full extent of the promised land as an “everlasting possession” (Ge. 15:18-21, 17:8). This space is far larger than Israel currently occupies. Currently, 47% of Jews worldwide live in Israel. The prophets foretold of a future time that they would dwell in the land securely, without fear of attack (Isa. 32:18). The problem is, they can’t unless they are walking in righteous relationship with God. He warned them of exile when He gave the law to Moses (Lev. 26:27-33). Until the people are completely righteous, they can’t fully possess their inheritance forever (Isa. 32:17-18, 60:21).


Descendants
God not only promises Abraham lots of descendants, but that the nation as well as Abraham’s name would be “great” (Ge. 12:2). The prophets describe a day when Jerusalem will be a praise in the earth and everyone will be in awe at the glory of God that clearly rests on her (Isa. 61:9, 62:1-7). This hasn’t happened yet, and we have the same problem here as with the land. They cannot be “great” until they are righteous (Pr. 14:34).

Blessing to the Nations
Jesus’ birth through the line of David was a big part of this fulfillment, but the day of full salvation/blessing/restoration for the nations hasn’t yet dawned. When Jesus establishes His kingdom on earth as the Jewish King ruling from Jerusalem, the nations of the earth will be more blessed than they ever dreamed possible!
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Sorry i havent gotten back with you. Its been a super busy day loaded with lots of wonderful stress. I will read this and get back with you, not today.
 
TMS

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#408
Abraham was never a Jew. He was a Hebrew but his father and grandfather served other gods.
He had many children to different wives. So when the promises were made of a promised seed who was that?

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Christ. Plan and simple.

Gal 3:26-29
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

If anyone is one in Christ they are heirs to the promise.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
John 8:37-47, Rom 9:4-16.
 
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ThereRoseaLamb

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TMS said:
Abraham was never a Jew. He was a Hebrew but his father and grandfather served other gods.
He had many children to different wives. So when the promises were made of a promised seed who was that?

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Christ. Plan and simple.

Gal 3:26-29
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

If anyone is one in Christ they are heirs to the promise.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
John 8:37-47, Rom 9:4-16.
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Why do you continually try to cut the chosen people out of the Bible as if they never existed?! Abraham was called out and was promised blessings, that he would the the father of many nations. He was the father of the chosen nation of Israel. He had a covenant relationship with God.


Land
Abraham and his descendants will permanently inherit the full extent of the promised land as an “everlasting possession” (Ge. 15:18-21, 17:8). This space is far larger than Israel currently occupies. Currently, 47% of Jews worldwide live in Israel. The prophets foretold of a future time that they would dwell in the land securely, without fear of attack (Isa. 32:18). The problem is, they can’t unless they are walking in righteous relationship with God. He warned them of exile when He gave the law to Moses (Lev. 26:27-33). Until the people are completely righteous, they can’t fully possess their inheritance forever (Isa. 32:17-18, 60:21).


Descendants
God not only promises Abraham lots of descendants, but that the nation as well as Abraham’s name would be “great” (Ge. 12:2). The prophets describe a day when Jerusalem will be a praise in the earth and everyone will be in awe at the glory of God that clearly rests on her (Isa. 61:9, 62:1-7). This hasn’t happened yet, and we have the same problem here as with the land. They cannot be “great” until they are righteous (Pr. 14:34).

Blessing to the Nations
Jesus’ birth through the line of David was a big part of this fulfillment, but the day of full salvation/blessing/restoration for the nations hasn’t yet dawned. When Jesus establishes His kingdom on earth as the Jewish King ruling from Jerusalem, the nations of the earth will be more blessed than they ever dreamed possible!

You are trying to take from the Jews what God unconditionally promised them. Those who believe in replacement theology believe the church gets all the blessings and the Jews get all the curses. You are plain and simply wrong.
 
iamsoandso

iamsoandso

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And the mystery eludes them all, the mystery of the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God and the mystery of Christ, and of Babylon,,and all whom seek to resolve the mystery by having it conform unto their own eschatology it eludes them all...
 
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ThereRoseaLamb

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iamsoandso said:
And the mystery eludes them all, the mystery of the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God and the mystery of Christ, and of Babylon,,and all whom seek to resolve the mystery by having it conform unto their own eschatology it eludes them all...
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Not if you believe God will keep His promises...
 
iamsoandso

iamsoandso

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ThereRoseaLamb said:
Not if you believe God will keep His promises...
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That would be everyone in threads like this though because in the OP the poster is inferring that he believes God did keep his promises(he sees it past tense). In your post you say God will keep his promises but you see it as not yet fulfilled so you see it future tense. Neither of the two of you are saying God will not keep his promises if you notice. If both of you are saying God either did or will keep his promises then saying "if you believe..." doesn't really seem to apply because everyone seems to believe God keeps his promises...
 
Beckie

Beckie

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Never did i nor do i believe the land promised to Abraham was for the Church. Having posted a number of times yet here again . God never fails to keep His promises .
Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.
 
Evmur

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Beckie said:
Never did i nor do i believe the land promised to Abraham was for the Church. Having posted a number of times yet here again . God never fails to keep His promises .
Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.
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God made further promises after Joshua ... like the ends of the Heavens? no the ends of the Earth.
 
Lucy-Pevensie

Lucy-Pevensie

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Beckie said:
Mat_6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Mat_4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mar_1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

I don't think He meant for us to seek a earthly throne.
Mat_6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

If His kingdom is , yet to be ,how does this verse fit
Mat_11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Did Jesus cast out devils?
Mat_12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Luk_17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Luk_17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Joh_18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Click to expand...
The Kingdom is now, yes. We are in it. But The Kingdom is not ONLY a spiritual one.
 
iamsoandso

iamsoandso

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In Acts 1:3 Jesus spoke to them for forty days about "things concerning the kingdom of God" https://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/1.htm Now in verse 4 he tells them "not to depart from Jerusalem"... They were curious in verse 6 if that at that time he would be "restoring the kingdom to Israel" ... Jesus said to them "it's not yours to know times or seasons...."

So Jesus didn't say this was past tense and they did not think it had happened yet if they were asking him and in Matthew 13:11 https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/13-11.htm they were given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of the heavens and in Luke 8:10 they were given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God. https://biblehub.com/text/luke/8-10.htm ...

So they knew the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven,the kingdom of God and were not seeing that as the same as "restoring the kingdom to Israel" they were not seeing it as fulfilled yet and were asking at what future time this was to take place. I believe the same in that it will take place but first the beast kingdom comes and deceives the earth.
 
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ThereRoseaLamb

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Beckie said:
Never did i nor do i believe the land promised to Abraham was for the Church. Having posted a number of times yet here again . God never fails to keep His promises .
Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.
Click to expand...


The map was provided, the proof is in front of their eyes. Israel has never fully had all the land promised them. So they need to decide, either God is a liar or He keeps His promises. You can repeat the same verse 100 times, anyone can look at the map and see the truth. God promised, that settles it.
 
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