Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace

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Cameron143

Cameron143

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John146 said:
Allow scripture to define evil, not the dictionary.🤦‍♂️
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Ok. Fine. Let's see if you are consistent.

Romans 9...

Jacob have I loved. Esau have I hated. How is hate defined?

God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Did God actually harden Pharaoh's heart?

One vessel made to honor, the other to dishonor. Did God actually make vessels for destruction?

Ephesians 1...

Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. Did God choose some before He created the world?
 
J

John146

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brightfame52 said:
Thats not good to think of God as mutable, when He is Immutable Mal 3:6

For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
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Context is key. The Lord states over and over that he will not repent on his long term plans for the nation of Israel. Obviously, from scripture, God has all authority to change his mind and direction. Jeremiah 18 is an easy one to understand.
 
J

John146

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Evmur said:
God did not change, He changed the Ninevahites ...
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Going outside of scripture is not good. Scripture plainly states that when God's word was heard, the people of Nineveh believed God, repented, and fasted and changed their behavior.
 
J

John146

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Cameron143 said:
Ok. Fine. Let's see if you are consistent.

Romans 9...

Jacob have I loved. Esau have I hated. How is hate defined?

God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Did God actually harden Pharaoh's heart?

One vessel made to honor, the other to dishonor. Did God actually make vessels for destruction?

Ephesians 1...

Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. Did God choose some before He created the world?
Click to expand...
Ahhh, the famous Calvinists verses taken out of context.
 
B

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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John146 said:
Context is key. The Lord states over and over that he will not repent on his long term plans for the nation of Israel. Obviously, from scripture, God has all authority to change his mind and direction. Jeremiah 18 is an easy one to understand.
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So you deny His Immutability. Another scripture Job 23:13

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
 
N

Niki7

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#966
ButterflyJones said:
No. The onus is on the one that called him murderer.
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I don't care what you think. Really I don't. shrugs The info is all out there. It seems, since you call one incidence a 'legend', you and I don't agree anyway. This onus is on the one that said whatever is old. Anyone who really wants to know something will do so of their own accord...I know that is what I do. :giggle:
 
N

Niki7

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#967
John146 said:
Ahhh, the famous Calvinists verses taken out of context.
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Right and next, you are accused of denying the immutability of God; which of course neither you nor anyone else who does not see Calvin's teaching as what God had in mind all along thinks.

What actually seems to be immutable is the Calvinist's irritable method of addressing others.
 
J

John146

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brightfame52 said:
So you deny His Immutability. Another scripture Job 23:13

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
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God is immutable in his characteristics, grace, love, mercy, righteous, holy....but God has and does change in the way he has dealt with man throughout human history. This is clear.
 
R

rogerg

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John146 said:
Jonah 3
4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
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There are different Hebrew definitions for the word "overthrown".
The version used in that verse was of change, not destruction. There are other definitions for destruction.
As Evmur said, God changed the Ninevites. We can know this the correct interpretation of the word
since they were changed but did so only by God's moving in them to do so.
Therefore, God did exactly what He said He would do: there was no contradiction nor conflict in either what God said or did.

This is the definition of overthrow as used in the verse
Overthrow:

Transliteration
ḥāram
  1. to turn, overthrow, overturn
    1. (Qal)
      1. to overturn, overthrow
      2. to turn, turn about, turn over, turn around
      3. to change, transform
    2. (Niphal)
      1. to turn oneself, turn, turn back
      2. to change oneself
      3. to be perverse
      4. to be turned, be turned over, be changed, be turned against
      5. to be reversed
      6. to be overturned, be overthrown
      7. to be upturned
    3. (Hithpael)
      1. to transform oneself
      2. to turn this way and that, turn every way
    4. (Hophal) to turn on someone
 
J

John146

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brightfame52 said:
So you deny His Immutability. Another scripture Job 23:13

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
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God once destroyed all things in a flood. Will God do this again, or did he state that he will not do that again? The next time, God will destroy things with fire.
 
J

John146

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rogerg said:
There are different Hebrew definitions for the word "overthrown".
The version used in that verse was of change, not destruction. There are other definitions for destruction.
As Evmur said, God changed the Ninevites. We can know this the correct interpretation of the word
since they were changed but did so only by God's moving in them to do so.
Therefore, God did exactly what He said He would do: there was no contradiction nor conflict in either what God said or did.

This is the definition of overthrow as used in the verse
Overthrow:

Transliteration
ḥāram
  1. to turn, overthrow, overturn
    1. (Qal)
      1. to overturn, overthrow
      2. to turn, turn about, turn over, turn around
      3. to change, transform
    2. (Niphal)
      1. to turn oneself, turn, turn back
      2. to change oneself
      3. to be perverse
      4. to be turned, be turned over, be changed, be turned against
      5. to be reversed
      6. to be overturned, be overthrown
      7. to be upturned
    3. (Hithpael)
      1. to transform oneself
      2. to turn this way and that, turn every way
    4. (Hophal) to turn on someone
Click to expand...
Let's allow scripture to define the word overthrow.

Genesis 19:21 And he said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken.

verse 29 And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.
 
J

John146

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rogerg said:
There are different Hebrew definitions for the word "overthrown".
The version used in that verse was of change, not destruction. There are other definitions for destruction.
As Evmur said, God changed the Ninevites. We can know this the correct interpretation of the word
since they were changed but did so only by God's moving in them to do so.
Therefore, God did exactly what He said He would do: there was no contradiction nor conflict in either what God said or did.

This is the definition of overthrow as used in the verse
Overthrow:

Transliteration
ḥāram
  1. to turn, overthrow, overturn
    1. (Qal)
      1. to overturn, overthrow
      2. to turn, turn about, turn over, turn around
      3. to change, transform
    2. (Niphal)
      1. to turn oneself, turn, turn back
      2. to change oneself
      3. to be perverse
      4. to be turned, be turned over, be changed, be turned against
      5. to be reversed
      6. to be overturned, be overthrown
      7. to be upturned
    3. (Hithpael)
      1. to transform oneself
      2. to turn this way and that, turn every way
    4. (Hophal) to turn on someone
Click to expand...
Do you sincerely believe that what God meant by overthrowing Nineveh is to transform them? I agree, transform them from the land of the living to the land of death.
 
N

Niki7

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#974
I can't wait until the discussion concerning how many angels can dance on the head of a pin pops up. (this discussion has roots in the 13th C)
 
R

rogerg

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John146 said:
Do you sincerely believe that what God meant by overthrowing Nineveh is to transform them? I agree, transform them from the land of the living to the land of death.
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Yes, I most definitely do believe that, because that was what the word says, and is that which actually occurred. How much more do you need? Do you perceive yourself as able to tell the God what He really meant?
 
R

rogerg

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John146 said:
Let's allow scripture to define the word overthrow.

Genesis 19:21 And he said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken.

verse 29 And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.
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I did. You can determine which definition is appropriate by what actually occurred. I said there are several definitions for "overthrow"
in my post, but can know which is correct by the result. To turn, not destroy, is one of those definitions - destroy is not always
correct.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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John146 said:
Ahhh, the famous Calvinists verses taken out of context.
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You don't want to answer because you don't want to show yourself hypocritical.
I'm not a Calvinist. I can easily explain these things. But it involves more than just the plain reading of the text. It does for you as well.
Because people disagree with you concerning a particular text doesn't make them a Calvinist. It just makes you the little boy who cries Calvinist.
 
J

John146

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rogerg said:
Yes, I most definitely do believe that, because that was what the word says, and is that which actually occurred. How much more do you need? Do you perceive yourself as able to tell the God what He really meant?
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Scripture defines the word overthrow. Never go outside scripture to define words.
 
J

John146

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rogerg said:
I did. You can determine which definition is appropriate by what actually occurred. I said there are several definitions for "overthrow"
in my post, but can know which is correct by the result. To turn, not destroy, is one of those definitions - destroy is not always
correct.
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Pretty plain to see...God did not do what he said he would do unto them. Why? Because Nineveh repented. Take Calvin's goggles off and read the clear, plain scripture.

Jonah 3
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
 
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brightfame52

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John146 said:
God is immutable in his characteristics, grace, love, mercy, righteous, holy....but God has and does change in the way he has dealt with man throughout human history. This is clear.
Click to expand...
You just denied God is Immutable, you say He changed His Mind
 
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