Spiritual gifts:Unconfusing them part 3 - analogy

That's a nice dodge.

No faith meant no Father at work there. Thus, no miracles.

That is not entirely true. Do you want of list of the healings (or other miracles) which Christ did WHEN THERE WAS ABSOLUTELY NO FAITH OR EXPECTATION OF A MIRACLE?

In any event, the ones who claim that healers are present in churches today must either provide hard evidence or admit that the spiritual gift of healing was reserved for the apostolic period. And we must exclude "faith healers" as well as the "prayer of faith" which does not involve any human healers.

Let's just forget Youtube, TV, etc and let's assume that the spiritual gift of healing miracles through Christians is a present reality. If this were true then every evangelical and fundamental church would have AT LEAST one healer if not several, and this would be a worldwide phenomenon.

Also spiritual gifts are not limited to any denomination according to Scripture. So whether the churches were Pentecostal, Baptist, Brethren, or non-denominational, we would be receiving reports about healings on a regular and steady basis right across the board. Perhaps those healers would even be going into hospitals and emptying them out. The news media would report these events on a daily or weekly basis.

Now it is up to you to provide hard evidence that this is actually the case, and that people are being healed daily or weekly in absolutely every church through healers. I do not believe you will have any evidence whatsoever (and let's also forget the "faith healers" and their shenanigans since they operate outside local churches).

Let's also keep the matter of divine miracles through the prayer of faith as a SEPARATE CATEGORY since that is God's direct intervention without any intermediary. This would not be the same as your claim.

That is not entirely true. Do you want of list of the healings (or other miracles) which Christ did WHEN THERE WAS ABSOLUTELY NO FAITH OR EXPECTATION OF A MIRACLE?

In any event, the ones who claim that healers are present in churches today must either provide hard evidence or admit that the spiritual gift of healing was reserved for the apostolic period. And we must exclude "faith healers" as well as the "prayer of faith" which does not involve any human healers.

That's a nice dodge. The burden of proof is on you. You claim the gift of miraculous healings is present today. So either put up or shut up.

BTW regardless of what happened in the hometown of Christ, the fact remains that He performed miracles DAILY even when people did not ask for healing or believe that He could heal.

I don't disagree. Faith isn't the only way God works. But Jesus wasn't limited in His power. He was limited by His obedience.

without faith, it is impossible to please him. Those who come to God must believe that HE is and rewarded them that seek HIM Diligently. Jesus said to have faith. And faith without works is dead.

Let's just forget Youtube, TV, etc and let's assume that the spiritual gift of healing miracles through Christians is a present reality. If this were true then every evangelical and fundamental church would have AT LEAST one healer if not several, and this would be a worldwide phenomenon.

Also spiritual gifts are not limited to any denomination according to Scripture. So whether the churches were Pentecostal, Baptist, Brethren, or non-denominational, we would be receiving reports about healings on a regular and steady basis right across the board. Perhaps those healers would even be going into hospitals and emptying them out. The news media would report these events on a daily or weekly basis.

That's a nice dodge. The burden of proof is on you. You claim the gift
of miraculous healings is present today. So either put up or shut up.

BTW regardless of what happened in the hometown of Christ, the fact remains that He performed
miracles DAILY even when people did not ask for healing or believe that He could heal.

So either put up or shut up.

Does God give wisdom? Does God give sorrow that leads to repentance?
There are numerous ways to see God at work than simply faith.
It isn't that what you say isn't true. It just doesn't apply to the preceeding line of thought.

If I said to you I will give you a gift but you must do something first before you can get it. You immediately start thinking, wow, wonder what I'm going to get? Will it be a car, or a TV, or boat, or ??? And what will I have to do?

Then I tell you what the deal is and what the gift is

The gift is not a car, or TV, or boat, but simply money. With that money, you can then get other gifts, like the car, or TV, or boat.

This is the meaning of Acts 2:38 and 1 Corinthians 12:8-10.

The money is the primary gift and once you have the money you can then obtain secondary gifts with or by it.

The money, the gift in this analogy is the Holy Ghost, the primary gift.

The car, TV, and boat are the secondary gifts, the spiritual gifts listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10.

And what you have to do to obtain the primary gift (the Holy Ghost), before you can get the secondary gifts (the spiritual gifts or manifestations of the spirit), is repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins, per Acts 2:38.

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Spirit Convicts the person to and creates a godly sorrow for one to see their need for Repentance as Jesus said HE would do in John chapter 16:8

Jesus also said these signs shall follow them that believe Mark 16: 15-18


15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

It is not. Either or, it is all that can be done as we are to desire the gifts of the Holy Spirit and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ and see HIS word confirmed with signs and wonders.

I love the Book of Acts because many of those Cencessionist fail to read is Acts chapter 4:33

33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.


The reason why Miracles happen was to testify that Jesus was alive and not dead. There was no other name used that people were healed of as that same Name Will never lose its power.

Peter said in 2Pet 3:3-4
" 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”

Nothing has stopped.

Paul said to Timothy/ 2Tim3:1-9 :

1But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come:
2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!

6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts,

7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith;

9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.

Yes, they are, and you can't provide one that says the gifts of the Holy Spirit, or healing are not for today and for the believer.

If I said to you I will give you a gift but you must do something first before you can get it. You immediately start thinking, wow, wonder what I'm going to get? Will it be a car, or a TV, or boat, or ??? And what will I have to do?

Then I tell you what the deal is and what the gift is

The gift is not a car, or TV, or boat, but simply money. With that money, you can then get other gifts, like the car, or TV, or boat.

This is the meaning of Acts 2:38 and 1 Corinthians 12:8-10.

The money is the primary gift and once you have the money you can then obtain secondary gifts with or by it.

The money, the gift in this analogy is the Holy Ghost, the primary gift.

The car, TV, and boat are the secondary gifts, the spiritual gifts listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10.

And what you have to do to obtain the primary gift (the Holy Ghost), before you can get the secondary gifts (the spiritual gifts or manifestations of the spirit), is repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins, per Acts 2:38.

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

That's a nice dodge. The burden of proof is on you.

The Holy Spirit creates in believers faith, repentance, and at least one spiritual gift, when we first believe in Jesus' death and resurrection as the only way to eternal life in heaven and the resurrection of our bodies for life with him in that final new universe.

In any event, the ones who claim that healers are present in churches today must either provide hard evidence or admit that the spiritual gift of healing was reserved for the apostolic period.

Where does it say you will receive at least one spiritual gift? No such thing in the bible.

If you seek it, you will find Him, Jesus said in Luke 11:13

13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"