Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace

reneweddaybyday · Apr 15, 2023

I do not believe those who are born again are the only folks who can "feel spiritual guilt".

I do not believe the heart of the natural man starts out as hardened. I believe those who reject God "feel spiritual guilt" at first ... when they first reject truth.

However, as they continue to suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18), as they continue to reject and walk further and further away from God, their hearts become more and more hardened. Romans 1 explains how and why this occurs.

vs 21 – foolish heart becomes darkened when they knew God yet they did glorified Him not as God. They turn from God to worship idols. As they continue in idolatry, the result ...

vs 24 – God gives them up to uncleanness because of the lusts [over-desires] of their own hearts. They changed the truth of God into a lie. As they worship and serve the creation rather than the Creator, the result ...

vs 26 – God gives them up to vile affections and they do things which is against nature ... they burn in their lust toward one another. As they continue to burn in their lust one toward another, the result ...

vs 28 – God gives them over to a reprobate mind.

At any time in this downward spiral, a person can hear the gospel preached, believe the gospel, and because the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (Rom 1:16), that person who was once hard hearted is given that new heart by God.

I have listened to testimonies by people who describe themselves just as Rom 1:29-32 and who had the gospel preached to them and because the gospel is so powerful, they were brought to salvation.

Do you not understand that it is the gospel which is the power of God to salvation ??? Faith does not in any way, shape, or form, diminish the sovereignty of God ... nor the honor and reverence due to God.

Some folks have turned faith into something never intended by God ... sad, really, because Romans 1:17 tells us For therein [the gospel of Christ] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

from faith to faith ... what this means is that what is begun in faith continues in faith. It is through faith that we live out our lives here on earth. It is not that we begin in faith and then our works take over ... our whole life is to be lived in faith. God is faithful and the born again one, as a child of God, is to live in faith to the Father Who is faithful.

Ephesians 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children

ForestGreenCook said:

The jews in Acts 2:37 were not yet born again so they did not yet have the "fleshy heart" of a born again one. We know they were not born again because Peter tells them in the next verse:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The gift of the Holy Ghost is what is received by the newly born again one at the time of conversion.
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reneweddaybyday · Apr 15, 2023

brightfame52 said:

Apparently the Galatian believers did not get the memo that "they wont stray away from it, they cant no longer be deceived"

Galatians 3:1-3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Additional warnings given by God to the born again one:

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
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reneweddaybyday · Apr 15, 2023

rogerg said:

... a foolish statement which has no basis in reality.

Why don't you tell us who "they" are, rogerg?

Who are all these brothers and sisters in Christ who you claim:

"have a fundamental problem understanding/reconciling scripture"

"perceiving their salvation dependent upon themselves and not God, and also their faith dependent upon themselves and not God"

"are oblivious that God works within those He has chosen"

I assume I'm at the top of your list, and I really don't care what you think of me. But I do care about my brothers and sisters in Christ (even you). You are completely out of line in speaking about a fellow believer with such contempt ... spreading your lies because of your inability to reason from the Scriptures.

rogerg said:

I will explain to you how foolish this statement is by using some of the statements you have made concerning our recent discussion about 2 Cor 3:16 [the active verb "turn"]

I asked you "When you are drawn away from the Lord, do you turn back to Him once you realize you have strayed from Him?" (Post 742)

You replied "I don't" and referenced [1 Pe 1:5 KJV] 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (Post 745)

So, apparently, you either believe you do not ever sin which, according to Scripture, is a lie: 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

or

since you are kept by the power of God, and you never are drawn away from Him, then God leads you to sin ... which is the worst possible lie ... way worse than the lie that you never sin.
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reneweddaybyday · Apr 15, 2023

ForestGreenCook said:

words of wisdom, ForestGreenCook.

Hopefully, brightfame52 (and rogerg) will receive the truth from you.

James 1:5-7 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
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reneweddaybyday · Apr 15, 2023

brightfame52 said:

... oh, I forgot you deem the propitiation of the Lord Jesus Christ to be insufficient to cover the sins of all descendants of Adam and Eve.
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reneweddaybyday · Apr 15, 2023

brightfame52 said:

1 John 1:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us.
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rogerg · Apr 15, 2023

reneweddaybyday said:

You switched reasoning halfway through your statement. You begin by discussing things that God told us to do and to not to do in this life but then switch to 2Co 3:16. However, that is not the lifting of the veil - the lifting of the veil does not pertain to day to day actions - which actions none of us can do perfectly - it pertains to the coming to knowledge of, and faith in Christ alone as Saviour - fully, completely and in all ways. It is only God who gives that wisdom and that faith and only to His elect, not to everyone. Did you read 2 Cor 3:14? It says the veil is removed, but not of ourselves - it is "DONE AWAY IN CHRIST". In other words, of ourselves, no one can remove it, nor would anyone have a desire to, given the mind of natural man is blinded. Only when indwelt by the Holy Spirit, by whom is Christ revealed, the person is turned, and the veil removed.
I'll say this again though I've already said it to you multiple times. To "turn" to Christ is the "what"; the "how" and "why" are
God's, not man's - it is God who causes turning: to turn is result, not cause.
Also, you added to 2 Cor 3:16, which is a no-no. NONE of the below translations contain what you've said above with: " when you turn your heart". Please post that translation so I can see it as I couldn't find it.

[2Co 3:14 KJV] 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.

[2Co 3:16 NKJV] 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

[2Co 3:16 NLT] 16 But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

[2Co 3:16 NIV] 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

[2Co 3:16 ESV] 16 But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.

[2Co 3:16 CSB] 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.

[2Co 3:16 NASB20] 16 but whenever [someone] turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

[2Co 3:16 NASB95] 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

[2Co 3:16 LSB] 16 but WHENEVER a person TURNS TO THE LORD, THE VEIL IS TAKEN AWAY.

[2Co 3:16 NET] 16 but when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.

[2Co 3:16 RSV] 16 but when a man turns to the Lord the veil is removed.

[2Co 3:16 ASV] 16 But whensoever it shall turn to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

[2Co 3:16 YLT] 16 and whenever they may turn unto the Lord, the vail is taken away.

[2Co 3:16 DBY] 16 But when it shall turn to [the] Lord, the veil is taken away.)

[2Co 3:16 WEB] 16 Nevertheless, when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

[2Co 3:16 HNV] 16 But whenever one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

rogerg · Apr 15, 2023

reneweddaybyday said:

The "they" are those who attribute their salvation to what they have done or what they will do, instead of God.

reneweddaybyday said:

You do not realize what sin is.

if we say that we do not sin because of ourselves or because of anything that we have done or might do, then we lie. Given as the Bible tells us that we do not sin because we have been justified by Christ - and should we say the same on that basis alone- then there is no lie. Otherwise, we would make the Bible a liar and Christ not the Saviour.

[1Jo 1:7 KJV] 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

[1Jo 3:9 KJV] 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

[Rom 8:1-3 KJV] 1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

reneweddaybyday said:

Those born-again cannot be drawn away from their trust in Christ as Saviour, but it is only due to God's power not theirs. Should someone be drawn from trusting in Christ as Saviour, then they never were born-again.

[Phl 1:6 KJV] 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

[1Pe 1:5 KJV] 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

ForestGreenCook · Apr 15, 2023

reneweddaybyday said:

James is addressing the twelve tribes of Israel, even calling then "brethren". The "all men" in verse 5 has reference to all men of Israel, .

The natural man will not, and even cannot, ask a spiritual God, about anything spiritual (1 Cor 2:14).

rogerg · Apr 15, 2023

reneweddaybyday said:

The foolishness is yours. Your desire is to be a teacher and follower of law, trying to persuade or intimidate others into following your sinful example. You understand neither what you say, nor of what you affirm.

To be "drawn away from the Lord" is to lose one's faith in Christ, His mercy, and His grace, unto another as saviour - one of works, but for those who have truly become saved/born again by God, that will not happen, as we are told per the verse that I included. So, whether you realize it or not, you are arguing with God and against God, saying that His words are untrue - a very dangerous place to be in, indeed.

Snacks · Apr 16, 2023

rogerg said:

Are you one of those fools who proclaim “world” in John 3.16 does not mean the entire world but rather some make believe limited world of the elect where God’s grace is handcuffed?

rogerg · Apr 16, 2023

Snacks said:

Yes, I am. Are you one of the fools who does not? God's grace would be handcuffed if it were intended to include everyone.

ForestGreenCook · Apr 16, 2023

rogerg said:

I tend to disagree with you. All of spiritual Israel (Rev 5:9) shall be saved (Rom 11:26).

The house of Israel includes all of the elect. The lost sheep of the household of Israel, are the disobedient elect that have turned away from God, and began to worship idols, such as those that are worshiping themselves, believing that their works can save them eternally.

The remnant of the house of Israel are instructed to teach the gospel to the lost sheep of the household of Israel. Rom 10:1-3 is an example of Paul praying for the lost sheep of the household of Israel, that they should be saved=delivered from their ignorance of the gospel.

rogerg · Apr 16, 2023

ForestGreenCook said:

Yes, I realize that you understand it differently than I do. I believe the lost sheep to be the elect who have not yet become born-again and therefore do not yet know Christ as Saviour, rather than it of being those who were born-again and yet have fallen-away. I do not believe it possible for that to happen, because we are told that it is God who made Himself guarantor that it wouldn't. To me, it comes down to this: whether Jew or Gentile does not matter at all. All that matters, and the point of departure for salvation, is whether or not someone's name had been written into the book of life from before the foundation of the world: those names who were, must become saved, and they cannot, not, become saved - intervention or lack of it by man in that regard cannot subvert that end from occurring. All categories or sub- divisions of natural man are irrelevant and insignificant to that. Therefore, have all true believers been instructed by God to share the gospel to all non-believers, irrespective of either's lineage or heritage.

[Jhn 10:16 KJV] 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[Phl 1:6 KJV]
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

Snacks · Apr 16, 2023

rogerg said:

Do you see the oxymoronic nature of your statement, let alone its sheer stupidity?

rogerg · Apr 16, 2023

Snacks said:

Your comment clearly demonstrates that do not understand God's grace.

reneweddaybyday · Apr 16, 2023

rogerg said:

... do you recall that we have already gone through the fact that it is the Lord Who removes the veil?

Here is what I submitted in Post 526

reneweddaybyday said:

16 Nevertheless when it [the heart of the reader] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

2 Cor 3:15-16 – the veil remains upon the heart of some when they read Scripture. However, when the reader turns his or her heart to the Lord Jesus Christ, the veil is removed. [note: the verb is active which means the reader turns his/her heart]

In 2 Cor 3:16, the words shall turn are translated from the Greek word epistrephó which means to turn. The verb is active, which means the person turns. If the verb was passive, that would mean the person was turned.

The veil being removed ... taken away is passive, which means that the person does not remove the veil. The veil is removed from him or her.

The person does the turning, the Lord removes the veil.

Read the last sentence, rogerg ... "the person does the turning, the Lord removes the veil". The verb tenses in the verse tell us who does what:

when it shall turn [active verb] – meaning the reader turns his/her heart.

the veil shall be taken away [passive verb] – meaning the reader does not remove the veil. The veil is removed from the reader.

The reader does the turning ... the Lord removes the veil.

rogerg said:

I'll be happy to just go through the versions you have submitted and highlight in red the "you" in the verse. In fact, just replace the word in red with "rogerg":

[2Co 3:16 NKJV] 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

[2Co 3:16 NLT] 16 But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

[2Co 3:16 NIV] 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

[2Co 3:16 ESV] 16 But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.

[2Co 3:16 CSB] 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.

[2Co 3:16 NASB20] 16 but whenever [someone] turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

[2Co 3:16 NASB95] 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

[2Co 3:16 LSB] 16 but WHENEVER a person TURNS TO THE LORD, THE VEIL IS TAKEN AWAY.

[2Co 3:16 NET] 16 but when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.

[2Co 3:16 RSV] 16 but when a man turns to the Lord the veil is removed.

[2Co 3:16 ASV] 16 But whensoever it shall turn to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

[2Co 3:16 YLT] 16 and whenever they may turn unto the Lord, the vail is taken away.

[2Co 3:16 DBY] 16 But when it shall turn to [the] Lord, the veil is taken away.)

[2Co 3:16 WEB] 16 Nevertheless, when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

[2Co 3:16 HNV] 16 But whenever one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Instead of arguing, why don't you just try turning your heart to the Lord ... He will always be there waiting for you with arms wide open to receive you and hold you close.
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reneweddaybyday · Apr 16, 2023

rogerg said:

Since none of the believers who have posted in this thread "attribute their salvation to what they have done or what they will do, instead of God", perhaps you were speaking of folks from other sites who do as you claim in your Post 749???

rogerg said:

Do you know that Scripture tells us whatsoever is not of faith is sin (Rom 14:23) and that if we knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin (James 4:17)???

rogerg said:

... read the verse again

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

you added the words "because of ourselves or because of anything that we have done or might do". Just read the verse as written ... God excluded the words you want to include and, as the Author of Scripture, if He had wanted to include them, He would have.

rogerg said:

unscriptural ...

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous

God's desire for us is that we not sin, but because He knoweth our frame, He remembereth we are dust, in His grace and lovingkindness, He makes provision for us if and when we do sin.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

If, as according to you "the Bible tells us that we do not sin", there would be no need for God to include 1 John 1:9 in Scripture (or 1 John 2:1 ... or many other verses He included).

rogerg said:

Notice the condition if we walk in the light

rogerg said:

Is this your proof text that you do not sin, rogerg? ... that you have never, ever sinned since the moment you were born again ???

rogerg said:

Are you claiming that you never, ever walk after the flesh, rogerg? ... that you have walked and continue to walk after the Spirit 24/7/365 from the moment you were born again to this day???

rogerg said:

not true, rogerg. the born again one may stumble in this life and he or she may sin. Until we see the Lord Jesus Christ face-to-face and we are like Him, we can be drawn away through the lusts of our flesh ... just as explained in James 1.

rogerg said:

God is absolutely faithful and He does work within each born again one. However, is the born again one always faithful to follow Him at all times (24/7/365) since he or she was born again?

rogerg said:

Again, rogerg, I am not speaking of salvation. I am speaking of the fellowship the child of God has with the Father ... the moment by moment, day by day close relationship which can and does become strained when the child of God stumbles and sins.

Maybe you have never sinned since the time you were born again ... I don't believe that is the case, but you seem to infer that you have never, ever sinned ... and if that is the case, good for you.

Myself? I am not perfect (yet) and I have sinned since becoming born again. The moment I realize I have strayed and turn back to the Lord Jesus Christ, He is there welcoming me back into the fold. He is so, so good.
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reneweddaybyday · Apr 16, 2023

ForestGreenCook said:

We were not discussing natural man ... you specifically mentioned only the born again believer:

ForestGreenCook said:

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reneweddaybyday · Apr 16, 2023

rogerg said:

nope ... that you believe what you claim about me reveals you don't know me.

rogerg said:

I understand more than you believe I understand.

rogerg said:

nope ... to be "drawn away" is to be lured through the lusts of the flesh:

James 1:

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

The words "drawn away" are translated from the Greek word exelkó which means to be lured away.

The word "enticed" is translated from the Greek word deleazó which means to bait a hook or set a trap with bait; luring them in through their own selfish impulses.

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

exelkó – to draw out, (Homer, Pindar, Attic writings); metaphorically, equivalent to to lure forth (A. V. draw away): ὑπό τῆς ... ἐπιθυμίαςἐξελκόμενος, James 1:14, where the metaphor is taken from hunting and fishing: as game is lured from its covert

deleazó – to beguile by blandishments, allure, entice, deceive

Using Thayer's analogy, our "covert" is the Lord Jesus Christ; the desires of our flesh lure us away from Him, entice us, deceive us if we look away from Him to the things of this world ... and this world is designed to get us to look away from Him.

Again, just because a born again one is drawn away from the Lord Jesus Christ, that does not mean he or she is no longer a child of God. It just means he or she has been lured from the Lord.

rogerg said:

nope ... I have never indicated God's Words are untrue.

I have explained to you the difference between salvation and fellowship.

You choose to conflate salvation with fellowship ... and it just may be that you are the one "arguing with God and against God, saying that His words are untrue - a very dangerous place to be in, indeed".

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace

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