Not By Works

Yes, I think having one bishop over multiple congregations was the first error. Too much power given to men in charge.

Then I think the pedo baptism came.. with sprinkling instead of immersion.

Not sure when they came up with the 'universal, visible' church.

I think the rituals and steps to salvation were bought over from pagan religion that deified objects and traditions.

But salvation is simple.. by grace thru faith in Jesus. Plus nothing.

We know what grace is, so then, what is faith?

Entrusting your salvation with Jesus Christ 😀

First there is initial salvation.. initial trust in Jesus.. once and for all. Then there is daily service.. trusting from day to day.

Initial salvation isn't dependent on daily service. There will be fruit from the Holy Ghost indwelling a sinner... But that doesn't mean they will be faithful to the end. Salvation and service separate.

That doesn't sound quite right.
I don't know what form you're using the word entrusting, but it comes across as one trusting, believing, or even having confident assurance in God, and they are not the same as one having faith.
Faith is not believing, and believing is not faith.
However, even as faith without a corresponding work is dead, faith without believing, at the very least, lies dormant.
One does not need to entrust or believe in God or that God will uphold his word, in order for them to have faith.
I would also say, there is more than one form of faith. One of them I would put in the category of natural or carnal faith, and the other I would put as spiritual or Godlike faith.
The higher form of Faith obviously is the God-like faith, because it requires God to move on the behalf of the person. Whereas the carnally-minded person has Faith according to their understanding of how things work in the natural world.
Believing is a work or an act, because it is a verb.
On the other hand, if you look at what the writer to Hebrews wrote, faith is a noun, which would be a person, place, thing, or a situation or circumstance.
In Hebrews 11:1 it starts out like, " now Faith is the substance of things envisioned... "
I used the word, envisioned, because hoping is basically, the heart envisioning something.
So Faith itself would be the object or situation, in which you envision.
Faith is kind of like dark matter. It's an object you can't see, but it's there.
In space, scientists know there are planets that are not visible to our telescopes, simply because of how they affect planets or other stars that get within their gravitational field. Planet X, might be a good example.
Peter displayed his faith this way, "such as I have, give I thee..."
And Jesus put it this way, "to him that has shall be given... "
The above two verses would be a Godlike faith.
Do you understand what I have been saying concerning the difference between faith and believing?
I asked because it is the only way to please God, as everyone knows, and yet it appears, most confessing Christians have no clue as to what it is, and specially, how it works. They also don't care.

There has to be 'works' otherwise there is some conflict

There has to be 'works' otherwise there is some conflict - James 2:20 - 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?

Luke 16:17 - It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John7:19)

There has to be 'works' otherwise there is some conflict - James 2:20 - 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?

Luke 16:17 - It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John7:19)

cool discussion all

Yeah, it's often the case where people say a converted person is going to continue to be faithful in the faith. So if after salvation.. someone is struggling.. they might go to the 'never saved in the first place' line.

But this is assuming works had something to do with being converted. It's assuming it was a commitment to good works in salvation.

And it's taking James 2 out of context.

When someone is born again.. it's all God doing the saving and convicting. Someone converted MAY continue in the faith in response.. but not all do. That doesn't mean they have lost eternal life or that they were 'never saved in the first place'

I mean David committed adultery... as someone who already had faith. Was he 'never saved in the first place?'
Many will say he wasn't saved the same way.. and so it's different.. but David believed in a redeemer.. as Job before him did. Abraham.. before David.. was declared righteous.. not justified by works before he offered up his son Isaac. Offering his son Isaac up.. was a 'justified work' .. but it did not justify him eternally.

So.. it's real important to keep works out of salvation.. whether it's overt.. like actually earning salvation.. or subtle.. like 'turning from sin' as a self effort thing before being saved. The former is making works after salvation conditional on keeping it.. the latter is making works part of receiving Christ in the first place. .and so if there is no works .. then no salvation.

Neither are biblical. It's being saved by grace through faith in Jesus.. plus nothing. And faith.. not being a work.

Hi - I apologies if I have not understood properly, just trying to get my head around things. Yes, you have to have 'faith' but if you have faith, you will follow what’s right and not wrong as much as you can (not saying that on the way we do not fault).

Jesus says he came to fulfil – I understand that as continue and complete not change. In Matt. 5:17 - 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

John 14:15: “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." [the commandments given before which he is to fulfil]

Rev 2:16 - 16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth

Repent – can only be if you lapse you ask for forgiveness of any sins – otherwise ‘Repent’ is pointless if faith alone is sufficient.

Repentance is an act of faith...trusting that we have forgiveness because our sins are paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ.
Our sins are not forgiven because we repent, but because they have been paid for already. He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins because God's wrath has been appeased.

This issue always seems to come up - specially when I have debates with others in particular Muslims - there simple reaction is - then you can do what ever you want - kill / rob etc... why worry if you believe in Jesus you are saved - I don't really have a clear cut answer.

Whats the point of repentence if we dont need to worry about our sins

This issue always seems to come up - specially when I have debates with others in particular Muslims - there simple reaction is - then you can do what ever you want - kill / rob etc... why worry if you believe in Jesus you are saved - I don't really have a clear cut answer.

Whats the point of repentence if we dont need to worry about our sins

It's a false argument. Those that truly love God love His commandments as well and grieve over their sins. This is what leads to repentance. Someone who continues to sin because they believe there is no consequence, don't truly love God and probably remain still in their sin.
Besides, God may not condemn His people for sin, but He certainly chastens them. No one sins with impunity. God hates sin.

What exactly does it mean to truly love God?

Sounds like striving to please.

We love God because He first loved us.

Luke 16:17 - It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.