Good Friday Reflections

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cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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#41
Interesting, but he told the thief on the cross that today, you will be with me in paradise. I would think that would mean by 6pm. Yes?
Hard to say really. You see, the idea of "today" and "day(s)" can mean any portion of the night/day cycle, depending on context.
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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#42
Hard to say really. You see, the idea of "today" and "day(s)" can mean any portion of the night/day cycle, depending on context.
Maybe, and yet Jesus told him today, meaning the day of the crucifixion. I believe Jesus had three hours to work with. He went to hell to preach to the spirits in prison, get the keys of hell and death, walk across the great gulf, and meet the thief in paradise (Abraham's bosom) by 6pm to fulfill his statement.
 

cv5

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#43
When would the women buy the spices for anointing the body?
Note this opinion. To me it is a stretch. But it could be meritorious regardless of what I think. Which is why good scholars differ in their opinions. And I for one do not want to be dogmatic in my own (relatively ignorant) view.

"Additionally, the women could not have purchased the spices on the weekly Sabbath (Saturday, Nisan 16), as the shops were closed all day for the weekly Sabbath. Again, no work was allowed.

So, we are left only with the Pharisaic first day of Unleavened Bread (Friday, Nisan 15) for the women to purchase the spices. But have we not already established that no work is allowed on a High Holy Day? Well, as it turns out, there is an allowance for merchants to work for a two-hour period on the afternoon of Nisan 15 (Friday), when that day is immediately before a weekly Sabbath day, which was exactly the case during the crucifixion week of AD 30.

Ben Mordechai provides the following explanation:

“The Talmudic term is . . . [Hebrew] Me’et Le’et, or ‘from time to time.’ In other words, it was possible that the ‘Great Sabbat’ of Chag HaMatzot [Unleavened Bread] began in the late afternoon of Thursday, Aviv 14/15 [Nisan 14/15], just a couple of hours before sunset and came to an end precisely 24-hours later in the late afternoon of Friday, Aviv 15/16 [Nisan 14/15]—me’et le’et. Essentially, this would have shifted the ‘Great Sabbat’ causing it to begin a couple of hours before sunset on Thursday and ending it a couple of hours before sunset on Friday. If this was the case, then the woman (sic) would have found merchants open after the ‘Great Sabbat’ so that they could go out and purchase spices and perfumes, according to Mark 16:1.”"
 

cv5

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#44
Maybe, and yet Jesus told him today, meaning the day of the crucifixion.
Frankly yes, that makes sense. I retract my earlier statement, as the legs of the others were broken specifically to insure that they ALSO died BEFORE the day ended.

So.....good I think we can agree on that point!
 

Webers.Home

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#45
.
The third day would have begun at 6pm the prev

The third day night would have begun at 6pm the prev

* Days and Nights are distinctly separate in Matt 12:40. In point of fact,
Jesus said days back then were no more than twelve hours (John 11:9-10)
whereas it appears you are trying to make them twenty-four.
_
 

cv5

Well-known member
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#46
When would the women buy the spices for anointing the body?
Here is some more "color" on the matter. Interesting. Maybe not compelling but interesting nevertheless....

"Could the women have purchased the spices in Jerusalem during those short few hours? It seems reasonable to assume that this was possible. But what about the time required to prepare the spices, which would most probably have extend beyond the few hours allowed for the shops to be open? There was another allowance in the Jewish Oral Law which could have also made this possible.

We know that only priests were allowed to work on the Sabbath. We also find, however, that it was halachically (per Jewish legal law) permissible for some other types of work to be accomplished. As explained by Ben Mordecai:

“Raba said: On the first day of a Festival, [only] Gentiles may busy themselves with a corpse, [but] on the second day, Israelites may busy themselves with a corpse. . . With regard to a dead body the Rabbis have made the second day of a Festival as a weekday even with respect to cutting for it (the dead body) a shroud and cutting for it (the dead body) a [branch of] myrtle (sweet smelling).”

“R. Johanan, he said to them: Let Gentiles occupy themselves with him [the dead]. Raba too said: As for a corpse in the first day of Festivals Gentiles should occupy themselves with him; on the second day of Festivals Israelites may occupy themselves with him [the dead body]. . . .”

During the crucifixion week, the weekly Sabbath (Nisan 16) was also the second day of Unleavened Bread. Now we see that the Talmud provides that the needs of the dead could be attended to on this day, and surely the “preparing of spices” by the women would have been allowed by this exception. This then provides the time necessary after the purchase of the spices on Friday (the short time when the shops were open) to prepare the spices in a manner suitable for application to the body of Jesus.

We therefore conclude that any argument that “a few hours” on late Friday afternoon would not be sufficient to both purchase and prepare the spices is not germane. Furthermore, we find that the activities of these women in the purchasing of spices “after the Sabbath” (Mark 16:1–2) and preparing the spices “and then they [the women] rested on the Sabbath [weekly Sabbath]” (Luke 23:55–56) fulfilled the words of scripture, as recorded by Mark and Luke. This is a significant piece of the puzzle we are building for our case of the crucifixion week chronology."
 

Webers.Home

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#47
.
Here's some helpful tips:

1» It's tempting to count the afternoon of Christ's burial as one of the days
as per Matt 12:40 and John 2:19-22, but don't do it. Wait until the Jews'
preparation for Passover comes to an end and they're ready to dine upon
their lambs before starting to tally the days and nights or your chronology
won't come out right. It's essential to leave crucifixion day set aside for the
slaughtering of lambs; including the one on the cross.

2» Avoid counting the three hours of darkness on the cross as one of the
nights. That won't work because Christ lived all the way through it. The
three days and nights predicted in Matt 12:40 are for when he was dead and
in the heart of the earth; not for when he was alive on the surface of the
earth.

3» According to Matt 28:1, Mark 16:2, Luke 24:1, and John 20:1; women
went out to the cemetery on the first day of the Jews' week; viz: Sunday.
According to Luke 24:13-24, that day was the third day since Jesus'
crucifixion. So any chronology that has Jesus rising from the dead any
sooner than Sunday morning is eo ipso wrong right out of the box.

4» Perform your arithmetic using literal Days and Nights.

5» Be sure to keep in mind that the preponderance of evidence attests that
Jesus rose from the dead during the third day, rather than after the third day
was completely over and done with.

Matt 17:22-23
Matt 20:18-19
Mark 9:31
Luke 9:22
Luke 18:33
Luke 24:5-8
Luke 24:21-23
Luke 24:46
John 2:19
Acts 10:40
1Cor 15:4
_
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#48
When would the women buy the spices for anointing the body?
More......check this out:
Not that I necessarily agree with this view. But the point is......the matter may be far more subtle than we might think at first glance.

"The traditional view of the Resurrection goes like this: It occurred sometime early Sunday, sometime after mid-night. It was followed shortly thereafter by an early morning visit to the tomb by at least the three women previously mentioned. The tomb was subsequently visited by Peter, and possibly John. Generally, Mark, Luke, and John concur with the timing of these events, although none say exactly when the Resurrection took place. John does suggest that the visit to the tomb by the women may have been before the light of day, i.e., while it was yet dark.

Matthew, however, in his writings to the dispersed Jewish Christians, carefully constructs the events of the women who came to anoint the body of Jesus. He begins Chapter 28 (ESV) of his Gospel “. . . Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn on the first day of the week . . .” The phrase, “toward the dawn of the first day of the week” might rightly have been understood by Jews to mean the time just after sunset at the end of the last Sabbath and at the beginning of the first day of the week. “Dawn,” as well as meaning the point in a day when the light of a new day is first perceived, can also mean the beginning of any point in time, place or event that initiates something new, i.e., the dawning of a new day or era.

The Englishman’s Greek New testament for Matthew 28:1 actually states, “Now late on Sabbaths as it was getting dusk toward [the] first [day] of [the] week.” Here we see evidence of the two Sabbaths. This is based on the Greek text of Stephens, 1550.

John N. Darby, a Hebrew and Greek scholar, in his New Testament, The Holy Bible (1920), translates Matthew 28:1 as follows: “Now late on Sabbath(s), as it was the dusk of the next day after sabbath(s), came Mary of Magdala and the other Mary to look at the sepulchre.”

The Berean Literal Translation renders this verse as: “And after the Sabbaths, it being dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.” Two Sabbaths are again specified.

One possibility is that Mary Magdalene and the others were so eager to approach the tomb that even before the last Sabbath was over they went to the tomb, after sunset on Saturday night. After their visit to the empty tomb and their encounter with the angel, they quickly returned to tell Peter and the other disciples what they had experienced. They returned a second time, early in the morning of the first day of the week, as recorded in scripture.

Based on the Greek text, John Gill’s Bible Commentary, Exposition of Matthew 28:1 (1991) speaks very extensively of this possibility."
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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#49
When would the women buy the spices for anointing the body?
Matthew 28 Gill's Exposition (biblehub.com)

Matthew 28:1
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
In the end of the sabbath,.... This clause is by some joined to the last verse of the preceding chapter, but stands better here, as appears from Mark 16:1, and intends not what the Jews call the sabbath eve, for that began the sabbath; but what they call , "the goings out of the sabbath"; and as Mark says, Mark 16:1, "when the sabbath was past": that is, when the sun was set, and any stars appeared. The Vulgate Latin, Arabic, and Ethiopic versions, and Munster's Hebrew Gospel render it, "the evening of the sabbath"; and the Persic version, "the night of the sabbath"; but must mean, not the evening and night, which preceded the sabbath, and was a part of it, but what followed it, and belonged to the first day.
As it began to dawn; not the day, but the night; a way of speaking used by the Jews, who call the night, "light": thus they say (y), , "on the light, or night of the fourteenth" (of the month Nisan) "they search for leavened bread", &c. And so the word is used, in Luke 23:54, of the eve of the sabbath, or the beginning of it, as here of the going out of it;

towards the first day of the week, or "sabbaths"; so the Jews used to call the days of the week, the first day of the sabbath, the second day of the sabbath, &c. take an instance or two (z).

"The stationary men fast four days in the week, from the second day to the fifth day; and they do not fast on the sabbath eve (so they sometimes call the sixth day), because of the glory of the sabbath; nor , "on the first day of the sabbath", or week, that they may not go from rest and delight, to labour and fasting, and die.''

On which the Gemara has these words (a);

"the stationary men go into the synagogue, and sit four fastings; , "on the second of the sabbath", or "week": on the third, and on the fourth, and on the fifth.''

Came Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, the wife of Cleophas, and mother of James and Joses, with whom also was Salome, the mother of Zebedee's children, Mark 16:1. There seems to be some difference between the evangelists about the time of the women's coming to the sepulchre. Matthew says, it was "at the end of the sabbath, when it began to dawn; towards the first day of the week". John says, that "Mary Magdalene" came "when it was yet dark", John 20:1, and yet Mark says, that they came "at the rising of the sun", Mark 16:2. Though they all agree it was early in the morning: all they say is no doubt true, and may be reconciled thus. As soon as the sabbath was ended, the women set out on their journey, and as they went, bought spices and ointment to anoint the body with: they passed through the gates of the city before they were shut, and might stay some time in the suburbs; when Mary Magdalene, eager to be at the sepulchre, set out first, whilst it was dark, and came back and reported to Peter what she had seen, and returned again by such time the other women came, which was at sunrising. From all the accounts it is clear, that he rose, as is expressly said, Mark 16:9, on the first day of the week, and which was the third from his death: on the sixth day, which was Friday, he was crucified, and buried that evening; he lay in the grave all sabbath day, or Saturday; and rose early on the first day of the week, before the women got to the sepulchre; who came thither, as it is here said,

to see the sepulchre: not merely to see it, for they had seen it before, and where, and how the body of Christ was laid in it; but to see whether they could enter into it, and anoint the body with the spices and ointments, which they had prepared and brought with them for that purpose.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
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#50
Matthew 28 Gill's Exposition (biblehub.com)

Matthew 28:1
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
In the end of the sabbath,.... This clause is by some joined to the last verse of the preceding chapter, but stands better here, as appears from Mark 16:1, and intends not what the Jews call the sabbath eve, for that began the sabbath; but what they call , "the goings out of the sabbath"; and as Mark says, Mark 16:1, "when the sabbath was past": that is, when the sun was set, and any stars appeared. The Vulgate Latin, Arabic, and Ethiopic versions, and Munster's Hebrew Gospel render it, "the evening of the sabbath"; and the Persic version, "the night of the sabbath"; but must mean, not the evening and night, which preceded the sabbath, and was a part of it, but what followed it, and belonged to the first day.
As it began to dawn; not the day, but the night; a way of speaking used by the Jews, who call the night, "light": thus they say (y), , "on the light, or night of the fourteenth" (of the month Nisan) "they search for leavened bread", &c. And so the word is used, in Luke 23:54, of the eve of the sabbath, or the beginning of it, as here of the going out of it;

towards the first day of the week, or "sabbaths"; so the Jews used to call the days of the week, the first day of the sabbath, the second day of the sabbath, &c. take an instance or two (z).

"The stationary men fast four days in the week, from the second day to the fifth day; and they do not fast on the sabbath eve (so they sometimes call the sixth day), because of the glory of the sabbath; nor , "on the first day of the sabbath", or week, that they may not go from rest and delight, to labour and fasting, and die.''

On which the Gemara has these words (a);

"the stationary men go into the synagogue, and sit four fastings; , "on the second of the sabbath", or "week": on the third, and on the fourth, and on the fifth.''

Came Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, the wife of Cleophas, and mother of James and Joses, with whom also was Salome, the mother of Zebedee's children, Mark 16:1. There seems to be some difference between the evangelists about the time of the women's coming to the sepulchre. Matthew says, it was "at the end of the sabbath, when it began to dawn; towards the first day of the week". John says, that "Mary Magdalene" came "when it was yet dark", John 20:1, and yet Mark says, that they came "at the rising of the sun", Mark 16:2. Though they all agree it was early in the morning: all they say is no doubt true, and may be reconciled thus. As soon as the sabbath was ended, the women set out on their journey, and as they went, bought spices and ointment to anoint the body with: they passed through the gates of the city before they were shut, and might stay some time in the suburbs; when Mary Magdalene, eager to be at the sepulchre, set out first, whilst it was dark, and came back and reported to Peter what she had seen, and returned again by such time the other women came, which was at sunrising. From all the accounts it is clear, that he rose, as is expressly said, Mark 16:9, on the first day of the week, and which was the third from his death: on the sixth day, which was Friday, he was crucified, and buried that evening; he lay in the grave all sabbath day, or Saturday; and rose early on the first day of the week, before the women got to the sepulchre; who came thither, as it is here said,

to see the sepulchre: not merely to see it, for they had seen it before, and where, and how the body of Christ was laid in it; but to see whether they could enter into it, and anoint the body with the spices and ointments, which they had prepared and brought with them for that purpose.
All interesting thoughts. Thank you.
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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#51
to see the sepulchre: not merely to see it, for they had seen it before, and where, and how the body of Christ was laid in it; but to see whether they could enter into it, and anoint the body with the spices and ointments, which they had prepared and brought with them for that purpose.
Probably most people who read this conclude that this was very commendable. But in view of the fact that Jesus had prophesied of His resurrection to his disciples many times, this was actually unbelief. There was not a single apostle or disciple who eagerly anticipated the resurrection of Christ. And even after many were told that Christ had risen from the dead, they refused to believe. And then somehow Thomas absented himself, and he too refused to believe.