Spiritual gifts: Unconfusing them

Very difficult subject (spiritual gifts) which is why there's so much controversy, and equally difficult to unravel and explain. But let me explain it this way.

First, look at the way Paul started his letter to the Corinthians starting at 1 Cor1:10 where he's discussing contentions and divisions in Corinth and the need for unity which sets the stage for the rest of 1 Corinthians.

Also keep in mind, this was written to them in their time, addressing their near term issues, and not to us nor considering some event in the distant future.

And too, keep in mind that the early church was a fledgling body with little to guide and hold it together, and prone to division, contention, and falling away, such as was also warned about in the Hebrew letter as well.

You have to first ask yourself and answer the question as to what is "that which is perfect"?

The aforementioned question and answer to it is found in Ephesians 4:13 wherein it discusses 'till we all come to the unity of the faith unto a perfect man, the perfect man being the perfection of the body of Christ: this being then the previous need for the miraculous manifestation of the various gifts noted in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10. We now have the bible to guide us and no longer need the piece meal parts of the body.

The "face to face" and "known as we are known" is relating to the distinction between the old testament readings, and coming to Christ via the New Testament and the comparison to the veil in reading Moses, and we now, they then, being able to look into a glass or mirror and seeing a reflection of Christ as opposed to our own image.

To piece it all together, you must look at the gifts and the logic in, and need for them at that time, all being necessary in the early church to edify it, as well as to grow the church such as by use of tongues, being a sign to unbelievers.

I've posted all the pertinent parts of scriptures from 1 Cor 12, 13, Galatians 3, and Ephesians 4. Look very closely at the similarity of words used and phraseology and piece those similar words and phrases together to get the true picture of their meaning as relates to the subject matter.

1 Corinthians 12:8-31

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.14For the body is not one member, but many. 15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

1 Corinthians 13:8-12

8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

2 Corinthians 3:7-18

7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Galatians 3:23-27

23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Ephesians 4:7-16

7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

I saw in the other thread that you wanted me to read this.

I read it, and do not agree. You wrote this from the position of a cessationist, someone who believes the gifts of the spirit ceased "when we got the completed Bible." I do not hold this belief. I believe that when Paul wrote "but the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withall," that it applies to all Christians, not just to the church at Corinth in the first century.

I don't want to belabor this, but for clarification for you and your edification, the spiritual gifts were imparted by the laying on of the apostle's hands. No more apostles = no more miraculous gifts.

Also, don't confuse the gift, singular, of the Holy Spirit or Ghost (Acts 2:38), with the gifts, plural. Acts 2:38 means that upon baptism, those baptized receive the indwelling of the Spirit itself and not the various miraculous gifts administered by the Spirit.

That's not true either.
Who laid hands on Cornelius and his family?


Agreed. The gift is the gift of the Holy Spirit. A person who has the Holy Spirit in them can operate the manifestations of the gift.

Good night, time for me to go to bed. God bless.

I've explained this before. There are 2 instances recorded in Acts wherein the Spirit fell unilaterally without the laying on of the apostle's hands and in both instances it was for a sign, to validate what was occurring by on high, and to establish the church. The first is in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost when the Spirit fell on the apostles who then spoke in other earthly tongues which was the sign to the then unbelieving Jews who were then converted which was the beginning of the church at Jerusalem.

The second and only other time was in Acts 10 with Cornelius, a Gentile when the Holy Ghost fell on the Gentiles 1st as a sign to Paul and his party to validate from on high that it was permissible to bring the Gentiles into the church, afterwhich they too were immediately baptized and note Paul's words on that occasion. That started the 1st Gentile church in Caesarea. No other time did the Spirit fall on anyone miraculously without the laying on of the hands of the apostle's on someone by which the spiritual gifts were manifested. There are no apostles nor persons they laid their hands on to further perpetuate the spiritual gifts mor is there any reason for such gifts today. Read Acts 5:12, Acts 6:6, Acts 6:8, Acts 8:13, Acts 8:17-19, Acts 20:6. The aforementioned scriptures clearly indicate that the miraculous gifts were enabled by the laying on of the apostle's hands.

A common quote is to say.. 'we have knowledge now, so the sign gifts can't have ceased.

This though is thinking the GIFT of knowledge is the same as general knowledge. These are different. General knowledge is obviously not super naturally empowered, where the gift is.

The other thing is making more of Paul speaking in the tongues of men and angels than is in the context.

For one.. this is barely mentioned anywhere else.. so it's not good to build a teaching on this one verse.

Second.. Paul writes more after this verse and he is speaking in hyperbole. Paul could not actually move a literal mountain with his faith. It's an example for making a point.

Third.. angels language in other areas of the Bible is not 'ecstatic utterances' ... I think it's actually the same lingo like Greek and Hebrew that people were speaking.

So it's not a good verse to support tongues being an angelic prayer language that sounds like gibberish.

I am familiar with that line of reasoning. I do not agree with it.

Every Christian has the gift of the Holy Spirit, and every Christian can, whether they know it or not, operate the manifestations.

So, what miraculous gifts do you possess and have demonstrated?

The manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit are not "miraculous gifts." They are manifestations. Evidences. Spiritual enablements. They are given to every man (Christian, whether male or female) as God wills.

The Bible calls them gifts.

Is there some reason you prefer to call them manifestations?

I assume you're referring to 1 Cor 12:1?

1 Cor 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

Note the word "gifts" is in italics. It was added by the translators. The Greek is pneumatikos and it means spiritual things or spiritual matters. The word "gifts" is in verse 4. It falls under the umbrella of spiritual things.

1 Cor 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

For the record, speaking in tongues is never called "ecstatic utterances" in the Bible. That is a pejorative term primarily used by people who are cessationists.

"Ecstatic utterances" is an accurate term

But Bible tongues were ACTUAL HUMAN LANGUAGES AND DIALECTS

Pentecostals and Charismatics conveniently ignore this,

and have create a "prayer language" out of thin air.

But there are many other spiritual gifts which have continued for the edification of the saints. Yet no one wants to focus on all these other gifts because they are not as "exciting".

For the record, speaking in tongues is never called "ecstatic utterances" in the Bible. That is a pejorative term primarily used by people who are cessationists.

We learn in 1 Cor 13:1 that when a person speaks in tongues it is either a tongue of men or of angels.

The manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit are not "miraculous gifts." They are manifestations. Evidences. Spiritual enablements. They are given to every man (Christian, whether male or female) as God wills.

I speak in tongues and interpret, prophesy, and have received revelation via word of knowledge, word of wisdom, and discerning of spirits. I have not done any miracles that I'm aware of, and I cannot say that I've miraculously healed anyone.

Tongues of "angels" was just hyperbole.

There is nothing in Scripture to confirm that angels were speaking a unique language. Indeed the apostle John heard them speaking in Heaven probably in Hebrew (or Aramaic). What you really need to grasp is that Paul said he would rather speak FIVE intelligible words of prophecy than 10,000 words in tongues! Does that put things in proper perspective?

Yeah it isn't called that, but most charismatics DO that. Gibberish... Non syntactic, non linguistic, free association speech.

That isn't tongues. And angelic tongues in the Bible isn't that either.