kenosis . . ?

So, when the scripture in Hebrews records: “[the Son is ] the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person” this is a legal treatise declaring Christ as the representative of God. When did this occur? When the Father said “This is my Son, in whom I am well pleased”. The Jews, reading the appeal to be reconciled to God in Christ, in the book of Hebrews, would have connected the dots.

The word Bar-Mitzvah actually means “a son accountable,” and this signified the time, not only when he was held accountable for keeping the Commandments of God, but also when he was to become an apprentice under his father in the family business. Jesus began His apprenticeship that day He said, “Did you not know I had to be about My Father’s business?”

Just a thought: we should all endeavor to be continually striving to hear the same words of praise from our Father during our pilgrimage.

Eph 5:1
Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

1Jo 2:3
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 2:5
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jo 2:6
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

G1504 - eikōn - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)

Rom 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image G1504 of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1Co 15:49
And as we have borne the image G1504 of the earthy, we shall also bear the image G1504 of the heavenly.

2Co 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image G1504 from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

2Co 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image G1504 of God, should shine unto them.

Col 1:15
Who is the image G1504 of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him G1504 that created him:

Here it is...
From https://www.riverlifefellowship.com/the-fathers-sons/
In the life of the average Hebrew boy in Jesus’ time there were three major events that marked their lives. The first of these events was his circumcision, which occurred when he was an infant, at eight days old. This was the moment that he was marked as a “covenant man” in Israel.
The second major event was his “Bar-Mitzvah,” which took place, as he was about to enter into puberty. The word Bar-Mitzvah actually means “a son accountable,” and this signified the time, not only when he was held accountable for keeping the Commandments of God, but also when he was to become an apprentice under his father in the family business. Jesus began His apprenticeship that day He said, “Did you not know I had to be about My Father’s business?”
The third event was what is known as the “Huiothesia,” which is the “adoption ceremony.” The word “Huiothesia” means “Son Placement,” and indicates the time when a male child reached what was considered to be the age of maturity (somewhere around 30). At this time, the father of the young man would place his hand on the head of his son and openly proclaim, “This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased! I bestow upon him now all of my riches and power and authority so that he might act on my behalf in all of my affairs.”
Jesus’ life is a pattern for all believers (1 John 2:12-14). We begin our life in the Kingdom as little children yet fully “covenant men” who have total access to the finished work of the cross. Then we progress on to young men who are apprenticing in the Fathers’ business, learning His ways and thinking. Finally we are to become mature huios sons, who can more fully act on behalf of the Father in His affairs.
So, how do we become the huios sons?
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons (huios) of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption (huiothesia) by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children (teknon) of God, 17 and if children (teknon), then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons (huios) of God. (Rom. 8:14-19)

Now, I can receive it.

Uh oh! You might get me started on the 5 Greek words for "son"; Huios, Neanískos, Teknon, Padion, Nepios, and how they relate to a believer's maturity.

Sounds like a good study/Op.

well, weeks later, let me give you what i think are the textual indications that explain what the 'emptying of Himself' is:


starting here:

Paul is telling us, 'have this mind also' -- that it is the same mindset Christ had when He appeared and walked among men.
what mindset is that?
we need to back up a few verses:

putting others above ourselves, doing nothing out of self-seeking, having 'lowliness of mind' - i.e. humbleness.
it is this mindset we are being told to have, and it is in this context that the taking of human form by the Son of God is being described: His incarnation is being described as an example of putting others before ourselves
and this is a mindset, not a change of nature: we are set on high with Him in heavenly places ((Ephesians 2:6)), and we do not 'lose' that by virtue of our not demanding of others the advantage of it. neither does Christ cease to be the very nature and form of God simply because He did not demand all remove their sandals and cover their faces in His presence.

look at it again with that view, that the reason it is being written right here is that it is an example of self-ordained, voluntary humility for the sake of love:

He is "being in the form of God" i.e. "existing in the form of God" -- that is, He is of substance & nature, God
He therefore had no qualm over speaking of Himself as equal to God, receiving worship as tho equal to God, speaking and acting with all the authority of God. (("did not consider it robbery"))
"but" -- His innate deity notwithstanding -- note that there is no need or cause for this clause unless He is in fact equally God
He "made Himself of no reputation"

this "making one's self of no reputation" and taking the station & form of a servant is equivalent to the mindset of voluntary humility & meekness Paul is giving Christ as an example of, encouraging us to be like-minded in.
Christ, though worthy of all worship and praise, of every honor and having all majesty, humbled Himself to act as our servants, taking on the form of a man voluntarily, seeking our good rather than His own glory, considering us more important than Himself.

is this saying He ceased being God?
only if Paul says he himself ceased to be an apostle when he worked for his own room & board rather than impose himself on a church he had visited to teach.
Paul makes this argument elsewhere - that a workman is worth his wages - while he presents that argument in the context of he himself voluntarily refusing to take wages he is rightfully deserving of.

this is the same with Christ: His "humbling Himself, taking the form of a servant, coming in the likeness of men" is not ceasing to be God: it is a forgoing of the glory and honor He deserves, in order to meekly serve us. It is in the same way that Paul did not demand the 'rights of an apostle' but did not cease to be an apostle ((1 Corinthians 9:1-18)), that Christ did not cease to be God but only foreswore the worship and adoration and absolute obedience due Him.

He set aside His glory not His Godhood -- and the overall message of this whole passage is that we should have this same mind -- setting aside the respect we should be given, making no demands of it from anyone, acting with forgiveness and mercy towards each other, seeking one another's good at our own expense. this does not make us 'cease to be children of God' when we look over an offense; in fact, because that same mind is in Christ - everlasting mercy and lovingkindness - we are called the children of God when we are peacemakers.

and this is how He made peace with mankind: not by ceasing to be Who He is - I AM - but by giving grace where that grace was undeserved.

"I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto Me; for I have redeemed thee." — Isaiah 44:22

A few verses that came to mind while reading the OP:


John 1:1-5, 14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. ... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Colossians 1:15-18 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.


Matthew 17:1-2 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.


Matthew 8:26-27 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm. But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!




devil spirits knew Who Jesus was ...

Matthew 8:28-29 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Mark 1:23-24 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.


clearly the Lord Jesus Christ was more than "just a man".

Having said that, I don't think we'll ever be able to fully comprehend all that He is and it's a good thing He gives us everlasting life. I plan on spending that time coming to know more and more of Him ... as much as He will reveal to me!!!
.

the question that is under contention is what does it mean that Christ "made Himself of no reputation" ?
that He "emptied Himself" -- emptied Himself of what?

basically, it boils down to did Christ cease to be God when He took on the form of man?
i.e. did He empty Himself of deity - or at least, some of the attributes of deity?

the question that is under contention is what does it mean that Christ "made Himself of no reputation" ?
that He "emptied Himself" -- emptied Himself of what?

KenoO is used in every other of its occurrences to mean "emptied of power".

Rom 4:14
For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, G2758 and the promise made of none effect:
1Co 1:17
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. G2758
1Co 9:15
But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make G2758 ➔ my glorying void. G2758
2Co 9:3
Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain G2758 in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready:
Phl 2:7
But made G2758 ➔ himself of no reputation, G2758 and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

the word is Greek, from Philippians 2, quoted below in kjv, with some context --


the phrase here "made Himself of no reputation" is literally:

the verb "to empty" is in Greek, κενόω, transliterated, kenoo -- the noun form for the state of emptying, kenosis.


it is an important point of contention in Christian theology, but actually a fairly modern debate, dating to the mid 1900's ((per this link: A Brief History Of The Kenosis Theory))

the question that is under contention is what does it mean that Christ "made Himself of no

posthuman said:

none of those have specific reference to power, but all similarly indicate "empty" or "null" or "void"

Click to expand...

, 0, 0)]" ?
that He "emptied Himself" -- emptied Himself of what?

basically, it boils down to did Christ cease to be God when He took on the form of man?
i.e. did He empty Himself of deity - or at least, some of the attributes of deity?

is He always God, or is He, while on earth, a mere man without any divine qualities?


it's a topic that in recent weeks i've discerned to be very important to several other topics -- some of your views on this topic have been very evident based on how you treat other topics. it is a fairly fundamental thing to how we understand Who Christ is and how to comprehend what He said as recorded in the gospels.
But i don't remember there being any actual formal topic specifically about this in the BDF... anyway there ain't any recent one, ha!

so here it is.
let's dive in!

for my part, i think there are some clues in the text itself that tell us ((and other things in other passages that confirm it)) -- but i am not trying to proselytize here but engender discussion. i think it's something we all ought to take a close, careful, studied look into.
so i'd like to hear from you all before i just just give my own views as tho i'm a teacher and you're just supposed to nod your head & agree. we all know how that works lol
most of you who know me fairly well can already guess what i think, anyway


]

none of those have specific reference to power, but all similarly indicate "empty" or "null" or "void"

none of those have specific reference to power, but all similarly indicate "empty" or "null" or "void"

few questions that may help us understand the subject:
- what could Jesus do in the flesh that He could not do in His preincarnate state (PS)?
- what could Jesus do in His PS that He could not do (while) in the flesh?
- were the above changes necessary or merely contingent upon His incarnation?

KenoO is used in every other of its occurrences to mean "emptied of power".

Rom 4:14
For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, G2758 and the promise made of none effect:

Please paraphrase Rom.4:14 replacing "faith is made void" with some other meaningful phrase. What do you think "faith is made void" means here, if not "faith is rendered powerless"? Does "faith is made of no repute" make sense here?
"
For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made of no reputr, G2758 and the promise made of none effect" make sense?

1Co 1:17
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. G2758

What do you think " lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect" means, if not lest the cross of Christ be emptied of it's power ? Does "lest the cross of Christbe made of no repute" make sense, when the message of the cross is already foolishness and a stumbling stome?

1Co 9:15
But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make G2758 ➔ my glorying void. G2758

What do you think "that any man should make my glotying void", if not " "that any man should rob my glorying of its power"? Does "that any man should make my glorying of no reputation" make sense?

2Co 9:3
Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain G2758 in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready:

Paul is boasting of tje Corinthians' giving to challenge other churches to do lkkewise. If the Corinthians do not give, Paul's use of them as an example would be emptied of its persuasive power.

Does "Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be made of no repute G2758 in this behalf" make any sense.

Phl 2:7
But made G2758 ➔ himself of no reputation, G2758 and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

How did the Son "make himself of no reputation? When he came into the world God commanded all the angels to worship the baby. And as he ministered his fame spread yhroughout the land of Israel and Judah.

You said, 'none of those have specific reference to power, but all similarly indicate "empty" or "null" or "void" '

Empty of what? Void of what? How can something or someone incarnating full of God be called empty. Now if the distinct centre of consciousness identified as God the Son reduced his conscious perceptions, knowledge and influence to those of a single cell human zygote.... that would be yo empty Himself.

Paul mentioned what he did in Philippians so that we might have the same mind that Christ had. In other words, the context is that we ought to be humbling ourselves as obedient servants unto God, and even unto the point of death if necessary.

Philippians 2

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

One could argue that the context includes chapter 1, where Paul describes himself as bound in chains in prison, seemingly powerless, but nevertheless able to have great effect, not by the power that he had before his conversion but through the spirit of Jesus at work in him since he gave up relying on his own powers , which elsewhere he says he now considers dung compared to his present relationship with Christ. Not having recourse to one's own pre-incarnate abilities (the abilities native yo us before Christ incarnated in us at conversion), but dying to that self in order to channel the Spirit of God, maybe this seems also to be in view in Ph'p 1: 12-2:11.
But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel;
13So that my bonds in Christ are manifest in all the palace, and in all other places;
14And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear...
19¶For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
20According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

Maybe we are also to imitate Christ by emptying ourself of our pre-incarnate powers and instead relying on the grace and power of the indwelling Holy Spirit.