I Believe the Rapture but...

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Sweetest1

Sweetest1

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I believe all Christians will be raptured but I don't believe it's how many say it will be. From interpretation, the only way Christians will be raptured is unto death because of the persecution of the faithless. That will leave Israel as the only Children of Heaven roaming the earth til Christ returns.

I don't know how many believe the way I do tho.
 
GRACE_ambassador

GRACE_ambassador

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Sweetest1 said:
I believe all Christians will be raptured...
Click to expand...
Amen! Thanks for your input...
Sweetest1 said:
...I don't believe it's how many say it will be.
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Do you believe How God Says it will be, According To The Scriptures?:

"For The LORD Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the
voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ
shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet The LORD in the air: and so shall we ever be with
The LORD." (1Th 4:16-17)

"Behold, I shew you a Mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be
changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for
the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and
we shall be changed." (1Co 15:51-52)
Sweetest1 said:
From interpretation, the only way Christians will be raptured is unto death because of the persecution of the faithless.
Click to expand...
I don't understand why an interpretation is needed - please clarify?
 
Sweetest1

Sweetest1

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GRACE_ambassador said:
Amen! Thanks for your input...

Do you believe How God Says it will be, According To The Scriptures?:

"For The LORD Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the
voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ
shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet The LORD in the air: and so shall we ever be with
The LORD." (1Th 4:16-17)

"Behold, I shew you a Mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be
changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for
the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and
we shall be changed." (1Co 15:51-52)

I don't understand why an interpretation is needed - please clarify?
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Many say it according to their own interpretations, and I don't believe like that. I believe what is shown to me through prayer and understanding in faith.

"We which are alive and remain" is speaking of after the first resurrection of Christians, and is about the tribe of Israel after the gentile Christians have already been persecuted out of the world. They will remain and be caught up in the clouds with Christ and the faithful martyrs. And I believe the same goes for "We shall not all sleep". Israel shall not sleep. This is why it is stated that the twelve tribes of Israel were sealed and no gentile nations are mentioned.

Interpretation is needed in my belief because the Word speaks deeper than many understand. I just wondered how many understood the way I do because most seem to believe in the physical rapture and not the spiritual one.
 
Sweetest1

Sweetest1

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Nehemiah6 said:
No "ifs", "ands" or "buts". To be raptured "unto death" is an absurd notion.
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No it's not. You're spirit is being taken in rapture with death of the body. He said he who tried to save his life will lose it but those who lose their lives for his sake will have eternal life.

And I said "but" to the interpretation by men, not the actual Scriptures from the Lord.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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Sweetest1 said:
No it's not. You're spirit is being taken in rapture with death of the body.
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It is a TOTALLY absurd notion, since only those who are alive when Christ comes for His Bride will be raptured. There will be no "death of the body". The bodies of the saints will be transformed and glorified. Please spend some time in the Word of God to understand the meaning of these things. But if you wish to persist in your delusions, no one will stop you.
 
Sweetest1

Sweetest1

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Nehemiah6 said:
It is a TOTALLY absurd notion, since only those who are alive when Christ comes for His Bride will be raptured. There will be no "death of the body". The bodies of the saints will be transformed and glorified. Please spend some time in the Word of God to understand the meaning of these things. But if you wish to persist in your delusions, no one will stop you.
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All Christians are raptured. All Christians are alive even if their body dies. That is why He died and rose again for us. So that we would live.

There is physical rapture which is for Israel after the first resurrection of the faithful, and there is spiritual rapture for the gentiles who will be persecuted off the face of the earth.

The Saints will be martyred. And the Bible prophesied this.

Just because you want to hold onto some person's interpretation of what is been gifted to Christians doesn't mean you are right. Just because it is widely believed doesn't mean it is correct.

I do not take instruction from men on the Word but take the Word as instruction itself.

I won't stoop low and call you " delusional" because that serves no purpose, especially when Truth speaks for herself.
 
2ndTimeIsTheCharm

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

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Sweetest1 said:
All Christians are raptured. All Christians are alive even if their body dies. That is why He died and rose again for us. So that we would live.

There is physical rapture which is for Israel after the first resurrection of the faithful, and there is spiritual rapture for the gentiles who will be persecuted off the face of the earth.

The Saints will be martyred. And the Bible prophesied this.

Just because you want to hold onto some person's interpretation of what is been gifted to Christians doesn't mean you are right. Just because it is widely believed doesn't mean it is correct.

I do not take instruction from men on the Word but take the Word as instruction itself.

I won't stoop low and call you " delusional" because that serves no purpose, especially when Truth speaks for herself.
Click to expand...
Hi! Welcome to the forums!

The way we present our findings from Bible study here is usually backed up with scripture so please list the scriptures that helps you to believe what you believe.
 
Sweetest1

Sweetest1

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Firstly, the Lord helps me believe. He teaches, I listen.

I don't mind referencing what He has taught but I do not merely read and think it's a certain way, but I hear His words He gives to all believers. I don't want others thinking I'm just reading it and seeing it how I want. I read it and see it as it is because that's what He wants.

Revelation 7:3-8

Servant are sealed but no gentiles.

Matthew 15:24

He said He is sent for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Not the gentiles. Paul, chosen by Christ, ministered to gentiles. When He comes again, He's coming for Israel.

Revelation 11:7 clearly states what happens after the testimony is finished.

Revelation 6:11 Fellow servants and brethren will be fulfilled after they are killed.
 
JTB

JTB

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Sweetest1 said:
I believe all Christians will be raptured but I don't believe it's how many say it will be. From interpretation, the only way Christians will be raptured is unto death because of the persecution of the faithless. That will leave Israel as the only Children of Heaven roaming the earth til Christ returns.

I don't know how many believe the way I do tho.
Click to expand...
Given what God says will befall believers before the rapture, the number of those who are left to be raptured will be very small.
 
Artios1

Artios1

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Sweetest1 said:
I believe all Christians will be raptured but I don't believe it's how many say it will be. From interpretation, the only way Christians will be raptured is unto death because of the persecution of the faithless. That will leave Israel as the only Children of Heaven roaming the earth til Christ returns.

I don't know how many believe the way I do tho.
Click to expand...
Thessalonians is written to the Church of God all of those in the body of Christ.



This section in 1Thessalonians 4:13 -18 is addressing the brethren (believers) in the body …. those in Christ whether asleep (dead) or still living. This does not pertain to anyone else prior to the new covenant which was instituted on Pentecost….

No Old Testament believers, including Israel, and no unbelievers during this administration (dispensation) of grace. It is only referencing those who were/are born again since Pentecost both dead and alive. (The one new man, the body of Christ.)

This is not referred to as a resurrection since some will still be alive…. it is the gathering together (aka rapture) The resurrection of the just and unjust takes place later in Revelation, when Jesus comes and physically sets foot on the earth at the mount.

We (believers) will not be around (in our physical bodies) for the “day of the Lord” or “Lords day” (which is collectively how the book of Revelation is referred to.)

The gathering together (rapture) is the culmination of this administration (dispensation) of grace …at which time (technically) is the beginning of the Day of the Lord.



1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14 For if "we" believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep “in Jesus” will God bring with him.

The words in Jesus or in Christ (verse 16) is who this is written to (born again believers)

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent precede them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead “in Christ” shall rise first:

There are a number of differences for this entrance as compared to when Christ comes as King of Kings. (Mat 24:31) Herewe have one archangel with a shout … with God blowing the trumpet. More than one angel(s) blowing the trumpet in Matthew_ 24

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Notice the pronouns… we are caught up together with them (the dead in Christ)

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Additionally …..The alive, or those living do not die….. we are changed

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
 
Mem

Mem

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Daniel, David, Job, Paul, etc will be resurrected, and 1Thessalonians4:15 says, "By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep."

16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Paul is addressing the gentile Christians of Thessalonica, who are Greek.
 
J

Joelightening

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Sweetest1 said:
Many say it according to their own interpretations, and I don't believe like that. I believe what is shown to me through prayer and understanding in faith.

"We which are alive and remain" is speaking of after the first resurrection of Christians, and is about the tribe of Israel after the gentile Christians have already been persecuted out of the world. They will remain and be caught up in the clouds with Christ and the faithful martyrs. And I believe the same goes for "We shall not all sleep". Israel shall not sleep. This is why it is stated that the twelve tribes of Israel were sealed and no gentile nations are mentioned.

Interpretation is needed in my belief because the Word speaks deeper than many understand. I just wondered how many understood the way I do because most seem to believe in the physical rapture and not the spiritual one.
Click to expand...
Hi sweetist1. Thank you for your very honest question. I grew up being taught the pre-trib rapture. When I was older, I searched the scriptures to learn more about the subject, and never found a direct statement saying that there would be 2 raptures. The very first resurrection a saint receives is water baptism and the baptism in the Holy Spirit, in which we are resurrected with Christ. The next resurrection will be on the last day when the Lord returns. At that time the dead in Christ will rise, and be changed with a spiritual body and be taken into the air to be forever with the Lord. We who are alive and remain at that time will also receive that resurrection. Those are the only 2 resurrections. The first resurrection is a spiritual resurrection which also involves the body. The body died with Christ and is raised with Christ. I am not sure if that is the spiritual resurrection you speak of?
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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Joelightening said:
I searched the scriptures to learn more about the subject, and never found a direct statement saying that there would be 2 raptures.
Click to expand...
Who said that there would be two Raptures? The Resurrection/Rapture is one glorious event which has nothing to do with the Second Coming of Christ (if that is what you had in mind). The two events will be separated by at least seven years. The first event is for the culmination of SALVATION. The second event is for the culmination of DAMNATION. And that is a huge difference.
 
J

Joelightening

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Nehemiah6 said:
Who said that there would be two Raptures? The Resurrection/Rapture is one glorious event which has nothing to do with the Second Coming of Christ (if that is what you had in mind). The two events will be separated by at least seven years. The first event is for the culmination of SALVATION. The second event is for the culmination of DAMNATION. And that is a huge difference.
Click to expand...
I was told that some people would be saved as a result of the preaching of the 2 witnesses during the great tribulation. So there would need to be a rapture for them as well, based on your teaching.

We greatly differ on this subject. I am responsible for what I teach, as well as you. To God be the glory who can open the eyes of the blind and save the lost.
 
Sweetest1

Sweetest1

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Artios1 said:
Thessalonians is written to the Church of God all of those in the body of Christ.



This section in 1Thessalonians 4:13 -18 is addressing the brethren (believers) in the body …. those in Christ whether asleep (dead) or still living. This does not pertain to anyone else prior to the new covenant which was instituted on Pentecost….

No Old Testament believers, including Israel, and no unbelievers during this administration (dispensation) of grace. It is only referencing those who were/are born again since Pentecost both dead and alive. (The one new man, the body of Christ.)

This is not referred to as a resurrection since some will still be alive…. it is the gathering together (aka rapture) The resurrection of the just and unjust takes place later in Revelation, when Jesus comes and physically sets foot on the earth at the mount.

We (believers) will not be around (in our physical bodies) for the “day of the Lord” or “Lords day” (which is collectively how the book of Revelation is referred to.)

The gathering together (rapture) is the culmination of this administration (dispensation) of grace …at which time (technically) is the beginning of the Day of the Lord.



1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14 For if "we" believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep “in Jesus” will God bring with him.

The words in Jesus or in Christ (verse 16) is who this is written to (born again believers)

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent precede them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead “in Christ” shall rise first:

There are a number of differences for this entrance as compared to when Christ comes as King of Kings. (Mat 24:31) Herewe have one archangel with a shout … with God blowing the trumpet. More than one angel(s) blowing the trumpet in Matthew_ 24

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Notice the pronouns… we are caught up together with them (the dead in Christ)

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Additionally …..The alive, or those living do not die….. we are changed

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Click to expand...


Okay I didn't know how to properly break up the post so I'll try to address in order.

Romans 1:16 Salvation is for all who believes, but to the Jew first. Meaning they always come first.

You say it's not referred to as the resurrection, but that again, is not what I've learned. Just because there are some who will be alive doesn't mean others will not be resurrected at the same time. They are raptured alive in the body and the gentile is raptured before that during persecution.

Matthew 24:31 is directly speaking of Israel. His Elect.

He said "we" and meant those alive in the body, yes, which is only Israel. This is why they are the only ones being sealed. No gentile receives the seal because they have fulfilled their place in heaven. Revelation 6:11

I'm not arguing about the changing and being caught up in the cloud. I'm saying that the rapture happens differently for gentile and Israel. All Christians are raptured. Jew and gentile. Not all will sleep, but most will. That sleep is a rapture too.
 
Sweetest1

Sweetest1

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Mem said:
Daniel, David, Job, Paul, etc will be resurrected, and 1Thessalonians4:15 says, "By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep."

16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Paul is addressing the gentile Christians of Thessalonica, who are Greek.
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Yes.

The dead in the Christ will rise first, in the first resurrection, being the gentiles, and Israel still in the body will be caught up. This is what I've learned.
 
Sweetest1

Sweetest1

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Joelightening said:
Hi sweetist1. Thank you for your very honest question. I grew up being taught the pre-trib rapture. When I was older, I searched the scriptures to learn more about the subject, and never found a direct statement saying that there would be 2 raptures. The very first resurrection a saint receives is water baptism and the baptism in the Holy Spirit, in which we are resurrected with Christ. The next resurrection will be on the last day when the Lord returns. At that time the dead in Christ will rise, and be changed with a spiritual body and be taken into the air to be forever with the Lord. We who are alive and remain at that time will also receive that resurrection. Those are the only 2 resurrections. The first resurrection is a spiritual resurrection which also involves the body. The body died with Christ and is raised with Christ. I am not sure if that is the spiritual resurrection you speak of?
Click to expand...
Yes, there are two resurrections.

I didn't mean spiritual resurrection but a spiritual rapture as in being caught up in the clouds of heaven. Some will leave the body behind, while others will be raptured in the body.

The first resurrection is when the Christ returns and the second is on Judgment day.
 
Sweetest1

Sweetest1

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Overall, I can see no one believes it how I've learned. And that is fine. It's just easier to talk about when someone understands how you do.

I got a little defensive when I was called delusional because I didn't think that was fair, but I should haven't said anyone was "wrong" or not correct.

Because I also believe all Christians are correct. And that we believe differently with a purpose. Not all people who call themselves Christians, but all Christians.

I don't mean to cause confusion or chaos or have anyone doubt what they also know to be true.

In the end, every faithful life is saved and all will answer to the one True King.
 
Radius

Radius

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Sweetest1 said:
No it's not. You're spirit is being taken in rapture with death of the body. He said he who tried to save his life will lose it but those who lose their lives for his sake will have eternal life.

And I said "but" to the interpretation by men, not the actual Scriptures from the Lord.
Click to expand...
so youre saying all Christians die, there is no pre trib rapture or pre wrath, and our "spirits" get raptured? That is absurd lol. Using that logic, every person who has ever lived has been raptured at their death
 
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