Hell, Sheol, Hades...

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Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#481
Sep 23, 2014
7,230
2,207
113
#481
The Hebraic system of justice that God outline provide for no prison system. In fact, it allowed the accused to escape to cities of refuge in some cases. In other case, the sentence was death, i.e., a valued life for an equally valued life. Prison is a Roman construct that poses itself as a 'more merciful' than death, but it reduces men to animals. And yet, these wouldn't think twice to make sure they'd that dogs are treated more humanely.
 
TMS

TMS

Senior Member
#482
Mar 21, 2015
4,030
1,319
113
Australia
#482
SomeDisciple said:
Like I said in post 459, it's not for "sinning for a time"; refusing to have your sins washed away leaves you a sinner forever.

And also, like I said, It's this kind of thinking that really is alarming. Do you really think you are a better judge than God? He can literally see and know everything that you and everyone else thinks and does and would ever think and do in any given scenario... can you do that? Do you know anyone's else's heart enough to say what they deserve?

Have you been to the lake of fire? What is it like? You must know- because you say that people don't deserve it. What or who does the tormenting in the lake of fire? Personally, I think the people there torment themselves- it's just a theory: but, can you confirm it?
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Where does life come from?
God is the source of all life, so every second I'm alive it is thanks to God.

Does God give life continually to the unsaved?
Does death never come to the unsaved?
Judgement is Gods and God will be just. I do not claim to know better then God but i will ask God ..... how does one lifetime of sin = eternal torment?

When in time has enough pain been felt for that person to perish and die?

If people can't change, why do You keep giving life to the people in the lake of fire?

God may have answers for these questions, or God may not need to answer them because He stops giving life to the sinner and they experience the second death.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Satan is saying....For the wages of sin is eternal life; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
 
G

Gideon300

Well-known member
#484
Mar 18, 2021
5,439
3,218
113
#484
WillB said:
I asked YOU to give an exposition for your belief in eternal torture and those words are explicit in that I meant YOU to use your very own words, albeit with links/references to support you, to see IF you actually know what you’re talking about. Because when someone can explain what they profess to know they are able to do so.

You haven’t.

I suggest you read very carefully this most relevant passage of Scripture and THINK about it.

Jeremiah 19:5

“They have built places here 4 for worship of the god Baal so that they could sacrifice their children as burnt offerings to him in the fire. Such sacrifices 5 are something I never commanded them to make! They are something I never told them to do! Indeed, such a thing never even entered my mind!”



It never even entered God’s mind to burn people alive for the few MINUTES it would take to die as punishment.

But YOU actually believe that God will do that to people – not for a few minutes – but for ETERNITY.

No, it was never in His mind and never will be because His major character quality is LOVE.

But the Enemy would have that in his mind and got his Baal worshippers to approve it….and do it.
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You don't know God that well, obviously. His character is Holy and His ways are righteous. Yes, He is love. But men do well not to trade on God's love. For example,

'For judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.' James 2:13
“For our God is a consuming fire.” Hebrews 12:29
"For a fire has been kindled by My anger, and it burns to the depths of Sheol; it consumes the earth and its produce, and scorches the foundations of the mountains." Deuteronomy 32:22

God's judgements are righteous and He has the right to do as He pleases. That's because He is God. "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." Sinners have nothing to fear from the universalist god.

The sinner's problem is not his sin. It's that he is dead. If you can show me a verse that says that dead people can get into heaven, I will rethink my position. I've looked already. All I can see is that there is a second death and that is the end of it.

It is folly to imagine that God is what you would like Him to be. His ways are not ours and they are far above the ways of men. We are not required to understand. We are required to trust.
 
W

WillB

Member
#485
Oct 12, 2021
165
21
18
#485
Gideon300 said:
You don't know God that well, obviously. His character is Holy and His ways are righteous. Yes, He is love. But men do well not to trade on God's love. For example,

'For judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.' James 2:13
“For our God is a consuming fire.” Hebrews 12:29
"For a fire has been kindled by My anger, and it burns to the depths of Sheol; it consumes the earth and its produce, and scorches the foundations of the mountains." Deuteronomy 32:22

God's judgements are righteous and He has the right to do as He pleases. That's because He is God. "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." Sinners have nothing to fear from the universalist god.

The sinner's problem is not his sin. It's that he is dead. If you can show me a verse that says that dead people can get into heaven, I will rethink my position. I've looked already. All I can see is that there is a second death and that is the end of it.

It is folly to imagine that God is what you would like Him to be. His ways are not ours and they are far above the ways of men. We are not required to understand. We are required to trust.
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You have made at least two bloopers.

Firstly, I haven't even remotely been arguing that 'dead' men can get to heaven. So, you've been attacking a strawman of your own erecting.

Secondly, it doesn't follow from what you've 'argued' - which by the way isn't even an argument and is nothing but assertions - that God burns unbelievers for ETERNITY. In other words, you've committed another logical fallacy, namely, that of the non sequitur.

Quite evidently you are unable to distinguish between symbolic and literal language - you would do yourself and those around a great service IF you took the time to do some research in the form and use of such language.
 
S

Saul-to-Paul

Junior Member
#486
Jun 5, 2017
403
71
28
#486
Revelation's second death of the body would make sense if the first death was of the body. But we all should agree that the first death was of the soul. Therefore the second death of Revelation must be of the soul.

The casting into the lake of fire is not the second death.

Revelation 20:12
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#487
Jul 3, 2015
61,133
30,268
113
#487
Saul-to-Paul said:
The casting into the lake of fire is not the second death.
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I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth
and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:
and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged
out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the
dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Revelation 20:11-15
 
S

Saul-to-Paul

Junior Member
#488
Jun 5, 2017
403
71
28
#488
Magenta said:
I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth
and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:
and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged
out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the
dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Revelation 20:11-15
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Doesn't say the casting into the lake of fire is the second death.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#490
Jul 3, 2015
61,133
30,268
113
#490

Matthew 7:13 plus Romans 8:13
:)
 
S

Saul-to-Paul

Junior Member
#491
Jun 5, 2017
403
71
28
#491
Revelation 14:9-11

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Jesus drank the same wine for the elect's sins:

Matthew 26:39,42
39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
 
GRACE_ambassador

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
#492
Feb 22, 2021
3,242
1,640
113
Midwest
#492
TMS said:
Judgement is Gods and God will be just. I do not claim to know better then God but i will ask God ..... how does one lifetime of sin = eternal torment?
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Greatest idea - ask HIM!:

“For My Thoughts are not your thoughts, Neither
are your ways My Ways, Saith The LORD.” (Isaiah 55:8)
 
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