3 Statements...Just True or False

T T T

One thing I find troublesome (?) is people not properly identifying the lie that Satan told Eve.

Not really meaningless quite a distinction actually death is for all flesh , wrath is not

This is true. And I supposed Adam had to know that, at the least after he ate the fruit, that his eating only sealed the destiny of all mankind to suffer death, which scripture does tell us. I posed the question to determine whether it was or was not the intent of speculation that he ate to be with her, given the assertion that scripture that says "He (Adam) is the pattern of the One to come (Romans 5:14b)." supports this reasoning that Adam ate. My current position is that Eve had nothing to do with Adam's desire to eat, and might even argue her influence if I thought about it long enough. Rather she was merely a 'tool' by which Adam's access to the fruit was made more convenient. Indeed, the eating thereof resulted in Eve's acquiescence? of a persistent unrequited love.
Might I be too very far off to consider that possibility?

And WRATH is upon all those who are not Born Again.

I listened in on a discussion on the way home from work about the world taking everything that God teaches and, after turning it on its head, teaches that as 'the answers to utopia (paraphrasing).' I.e., do not be fruitful and mulitply but rather population control is the key to life. Do not take dominion over the earth, submit your rule over to it, etc. etc. etc.

And WRATH is upon all those who are not Born Again.

Yes, the romantic angle does sometimes seem to play into these scenarios when explained
in a way that departs so far from what we are actually told in the text. 1 John 2:16 seems to
relate directly back to the garden in Genesis 3:6 ~ When the woman saw that the fruit of the
tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she
took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.
// For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—
comes not from the Father but from the world. One thing I find troublesome (?) is people
not properly identifying the lie that Satan told Eve.

I agree with Cameron on this one.


It isn't that Adam or Eve told an untruth, but rather, they chose not to tell the WHOLE truth.

A.) They omitted the fact that both of them knew perfectly well they were sinning, and they knew perfectly well they were going against God's clear directive, on purpose, with the clear intent to disobey. They really glossed over the depth of their understanding, and the clarity of their willfulness.
(These statements of Adam and Eve don't sound like statements of repentance... they're more like the statements of children being caught.)

B. While omitting their own deep knowledge and sinful intent (which shows one's culpability) they somehow DID remember to include another person's involvement and culpability.

C.) These aren't lies, but they seem to be sort of pitiful "deflections", exactly as children do when they're caught in some mischief. They try to downplay their own culpability and distract you with someone else's involvement. It seems to be EXACTLY what Cameron described with his own children.

D.) We should also, in fairness, consider that by this time, when they were explaining it to God, they were no longer in innocence... they were fallen sinners at this point. So it's no great surprise if they were trying to explain things in a way to downplay their culpability.


You guys have a lovely day... and don't take any apples from snakes.
: )

.

Hey brother. Thanks for responding.

It's good to think about all these things, so lets keep digging.


Thinking through these ideas:

1.) "Rather she was merely a 'tool' by which Adam's access to the fruit was made more convenient."
Nothing was required to make the fruit more "convenient." It was right there in the garden, easily accessible to all. Adam could have grabbed some fruit any time..
* So... this angle doesn't quite work.

2.) "My current position is that Eve had nothing to do with Adam's desire to eat,"
Well, the bible specifically says Adam, who had access to the fruit day and night, never took a bit till Eve offered him a piece.
God even mentions specifically.
Gen 3:17 "And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife..."
* So... this angle doesn't quite work.

3.) "And I supposed Adam had to know that, at the least after he ate the fruit, that his eating only sealed the destiny of all mankind to suffer death,"
This might be reading too much into it.
Adam didn't have the full scripture as we do now; all he was told was that he would die... that's all we're told he knew.
In fact, since he was innocent, and sin didn't exist, he would have had no comprehension of sin, or what it was, or it's many ramifications, or it's consequences on his progeny, unless God specifically told him of this. And we aren't made aware of any such conversation, so we shouldn't presume it.
It's ok to carefully parse the scripture, but we need to draw the line when we run out of both explicit and implicit information.
* So... this angle doesn't quite work.

4.) "He (Adam) is the pattern of the One to come (Romans 5:14)
We have to be careful what we do with this verse.
The word pattern here is also translated "type" or "figure."
This does not mean Adam was a blueprint for Christ, it just means he symbolized Christ, as a type, in some way. And symbolism, an analogy, is never a perfect or exhaustive representation; it is always limited - it usually only refers to a few particular aspects. And if we check the scripture carefully, we can find the particular corollaries between Adam and Christ... and it has nothing to do with Adam being any kind of messiah or savior, for either Eve or anyone else.
* So... this angle covers important doctrine, but it doesn't relate much to our topic at hand.


-----------

Conclusion - Where Does This Story Go?

1.) It seems to me, from scripture, that Adam had full access to the fruit, but he never had any particular inclination to eat it until AFTER his wife offered it to him, and spoke to him about eating it.

2.) Why? Why would Adam NEVER touch the fruit before, but suddenly be willing to eat it, and risk death, the MOMENT HIS WIFE OFFERED IT???
WHY?
WHY NOW?
WHY ONLY FROM HER?

3. Well, God says very clearly, Adam was not deceived in any of this. Whatever he was doing, he seemed to do it willing, and with full understanding it was wrong.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
(The implication here isn't that Eve was more sinful because she sinned first. It simply means Eve sinned while also being deceived, but Adam wasn't deceived in any way.)

4.) We can presume that Eve probably even LOOKED different, after she ate... and Adam would have noticed this change.
They both knew only innocence, but now Even knew GUILT, REMORSE, DECEPTION, DARKNESS, and a PALPABLE SEPARATION FROM FELLOWSHIP WITH GOD.
This would have been instantly visible: in her face, her demeanor, her voice... it would have been very noticeable to Adam, it would have screamed out to him.

5.) So Eve came to him with the fruit, said she'd eaten it (which was a death sentence from God), and she was visibly changed in all kinds of terrible and terrifying ways. Adam knew the gravity of what she did, and Adam could see the change in her... and because sin never existed before... the change in her would have SCREAMED out to him. The entrance of sin into the world... the first entrance of sin... right in front of Adam... right in the body and soul of the one he loved... this would probably have been terrifying.

6.) Adam understood what she'd done, and he could see it's effect, and he remembered it came with a death penalty.

7.) But Adam also knew God's power to create... he was there when God created Eve. Adam knew God created Eve. Adam knew God could do anything... even make people. Adam must have understood, at some level, that God was capable of making him a new wife if he felt the need to do so. Adam must have known, must have realized, on some level, that if his wife died, or literally destroyed herself, that God was capable of making him a new wife. Maybe Adam stopped to think about this, and maybe he didn't... but it must have been an understanding he carried within him at some level... as he well knew God's power to create wives.

8.) So what does this leave us with?

9.) The takeaway:
- Adam never had any inclination to eat the fruit before, not until Eve offered it to him... he wasn't walking around lusting after the fruit. He never had any interest in the fruit.
- When she offered it to him, he could SEE what had happened to her: she was not only under the penalty of death, but she had visibly changed in terrible ways, her whole person was suddenly altered, suddenly changed under the weight of sin, and guilt, and corruption.
- Adam knew God had power to create, and perhaps God would NOT give him a new wife, but Adam at least knew God COULD make him a new wife if he wanted to... it was possible... and it was easy for God if he chose to do it.
- Adam also knew that if he ate the fruit, he'd change as Eve did, in all the strange and terrible ways he'd seen her change... and he would also be under the penalty of death.
- So what did he do? What did he do knowing that Eve destroyed herself, and was under penalty of death, and she had no future... and God could easily just make him a new wife if he felt like it.... and that if he ate the fruit he'd end up just like Eve? What did he do?
- He ate the fruit.
- Why? Why, under these circumstances? Why would he do this? Why?
- There is only one answer with the explanatory scope to account for his action in the face of all these circumstances... only one answer.
- He loved her.
- He loved her so much he would rather die WITH her, than be separated from her.
- And so... he chose to die with her.



It is indeed a love story.
I know of no other way to account for Adam's actions in the face of all the details.
If we follow the evidence, that is the only place it seems to lead.

I know this was painfully long... but I couldn't sleep.
: )


.

3.) "And I supposed Adam had to know that, at the least after he ate the fruit, that his eating only sealed the destiny of all mankind to suffer death,"
This might be reading too much into it.
Adam didn't have the full scripture as we do now; all he was told was that he would die... that's all we're told he knew.
In fact, since he was innocent, and sin didn't exist, he would have had no comprehension of sin, or what it was, or it's many ramifications, or it's consequences on his progeny, unless God specifically told him of this. And we aren't made aware of any such conversation, so we shouldn't presume it.
It's ok to carefully parse the scripture, but we need to draw the line when we run out of both explicit and implicit information.
* So... this angle doesn't quite work.

1.) "Rather she was merely a 'tool' by which Adam's access to the fruit was made more convenient."
Nothing was required to make the fruit more "convenient." It was right there in the garden, easily accessible to all. Adam could have grabbed some fruit any time..
* So... this angle doesn't quite work.

You mean those who hold the truth in unrighteousness don't you ?

Perhaps this is where Eve got the idea, "neither touch it," from? Adam told her that think, "If either of us ever touch it, there will go my will power..." And then he was like... " doh! she touched it!"

1. When Adam sinned, his mind, heart, and will were corrupted.

2. Jesus has met every requirement of God for those who are saved.

3. All that are given to Jesus by the Father will come to Him and receive eternal life.


I know how tempting it is to add explanations. Please refrain. I understand that apart from being able to give an explanation some may not want to participate. Perfectly understandable.

My answers are:
1. True
2. True
3. True

They were corrupted before they sinned with the help of the serpent who questioned God's motive for His commandment and encouraged their motivation for self instead of love, trust, and obedience to God.
Answer to #1 : True
Jesus erased our sins, but we still need to be perfected by the Father's Holy Spirit in order to be accepted into heaven.
Answer to #2 : False
Answer to #3 : True

It is peculiarly interesting that it is written in scripture when God told Adam, "...for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die (Gen2:17 KJB for the peculiarity)," but when Eve answers the serpent in Gen3:3, she answers with the 'ye -plural', "Ye shall not eat of it...lest ye die."

It's good to think about all these things, so lets keep digging.


Thinking through these ideas:

1.) "Rather she was merely a 'tool' by which Adam's access to the fruit was made more convenient."
Nothing was required to make the fruit more "convenient." It was right there in the garden, easily accessible to all. Adam could have grabbed some fruit any time..
* So... this angle doesn't quite work.

2.) "My current position is that Eve had nothing to do with Adam's desire to eat,"
Well, the bible specifically says Adam, who had access to the fruit day and night, never took a bit till Eve offered him a piece.
God even mentions specifically.
Gen 3:17 "And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife..."
* So... this angle doesn't quite work.

3.) "And I supposed Adam had to know that, at the least after he ate the fruit, that his eating only sealed the destiny of all mankind to suffer death,"
This might be reading too much into it.
Adam didn't have the full scripture as we do now; all he was told was that he would die... that's all we're told he knew.
In fact, since he was innocent, and sin didn't exist, he would have had no comprehension of sin, or what it was, or it's many ramifications, or it's consequences on his progeny, unless God specifically told him of this. And we aren't made aware of any such conversation, so we shouldn't presume it.
It's ok to carefully parse the scripture, but we need to draw the line when we run out of both explicit and implicit information.
* So... this angle doesn't quite work.

4.) "He (Adam) is the pattern of the One to come (Romans 5:14)
We have to be careful what we do with this verse.
The word pattern here is also translated "type" or "figure."
This does not mean Adam was a blueprint for Christ, it just means he symbolized Christ, as a type, in some way. And symbolism, an analogy, is never a perfect or exhaustive representation; it is always limited - it usually only refers to a few particular aspects. And if we check the scripture carefully, we can find the particular corollaries between Adam and Christ... and it has nothing to do with Adam being any kind of messiah or savior, for either Eve or anyone else.
* So... this angle covers important doctrine, but it doesn't relate much to our topic at hand.


-----------

Conclusion - Where Does This Story Go?

1.) It seems to me, from scripture, that Adam had full access to the fruit, but he never had any particular inclination to eat it until AFTER his wife offered it to him, and spoke to him about eating it.

2.) Why? Why would Adam NEVER touch the fruit before, but suddenly be willing to eat it, and risk death, the MOMENT HIS WIFE OFFERED IT???
WHY?
WHY NOW?
WHY ONLY FROM HER?

3. Well, God says very clearly, Adam was not deceived in any of this. Whatever he was doing, he seemed to do it willing, and with full understanding it was wrong.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
(The implication here isn't that Eve was more sinful because she sinned first. It simply means Eve sinned while also being deceived, but Adam wasn't deceived in any way.)

4.) We can presume that Eve probably even LOOKED different, after she ate... and Adam would have noticed this change.
They both knew only innocence, but now Even knew GUILT, REMORSE, DECEPTION, DARKNESS, and a PALPABLE SEPARATION FROM FELLOWSHIP WITH GOD.
This would have been instantly visible: in her face, her demeanor, her voice... it would have been very noticeable to Adam, it would have screamed out to him.

5.) So Eve came to him with the fruit, said she'd eaten it (which was a death sentence from God), and she was visibly changed in all kinds of terrible and terrifying ways. Adam knew the gravity of what she did, and Adam could see the change in her... and because sin never existed before... the change in her would have SCREAMED out to him. The entrance of sin into the world... the first entrance of sin... right in front of Adam... right in the body and soul of the one he loved... this would probably have been terrifying.

6.) Adam understood what she'd done, and he could see it's effect, and he remembered it came with a death penalty.

7.) But Adam also knew God's power to create... he was there when God created Eve. Adam knew God created Eve. Adam knew God could do anything... even make people. Adam must have understood, at some level, that God was capable of making him a new wife if he felt the need to do so. Adam must have known, must have realized, on some level, that if his wife died, or literally destroyed herself, that God was capable of making him a new wife. Maybe Adam stopped to think about this, and maybe he didn't... but it must have been an understanding he carried within him at some level... as he well knew God's power to create wives.

8.) So what does this leave us with?

9.) The takeaway:
- Adam never had any inclination to eat the fruit before, not until Eve offered it to him... he wasn't walking around lusting after the fruit. He never had any interest in the fruit.
- When she offered it to him, he could SEE what had happened to her: she was not only under the penalty of death, but she had visibly changed in terrible ways, her whole person was suddenly altered, suddenly changed under the weight of sin, and guilt, and corruption.
- Adam knew God had power to create, and perhaps God would NOT give him a new wife, but Adam at least knew God COULD make him a new wife if he wanted to... it was possible... and it was easy for God if he chose to do it.
- Adam also knew that if he ate the fruit, he'd change as Eve did, in all the strange and terrible ways he'd seen her change... and he would also be under the penalty of death.
- So what did he do? What did he do knowing that Eve destroyed herself, and was under penalty of death, and she had no future... and God could easily just make him a new wife if he felt like it.... and that if he ate the fruit he'd end up just like Eve? What did he do?
- He ate the fruit.
- Why? Why, under these circumstances? Why would he do this? Why?
- There is only one answer with the explanatory scope to account for his action in the face of all these circumstances... only one answer.
- He loved her.
- He loved her so much he would rather die WITH her, than be separated from her.
- And so... he chose to die with her.



It is indeed a love story.
I know of no other way to account for Adam's actions in the face of all the details.
If we follow the evidence, that is the only place it seems to lead.

I know this was painfully long... but I couldn't sleep.
: )


.