Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace

Perhaps MANY, yes. But many accept election as a simple fact of Scripture. Zero in the way of pride. Contrarily, I think for many, it produces deep humility in the broken and contrite heart.

We are not all as ignorant of Scripture as you may think.
Romans 1
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Did you catch that? A few things PRECEDED their hearts being darkened. Let's continue...

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

All men are born with a choice. The call goes out to all. Equal opportunity. No "master class".

Amen to that bro. You would think the WHOLE WORLD would be repenting in these days of end-times signs. Nobody can deny their manifestation. But nope. Evidently for the very reasons that you have delineated.

I certainly agree that they are sadly misguided regarding the fact of God's unconditional love, which they conflate
with salvation, which is not unconditional, since it is conditioned upon faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ.

I see this conflation being expressed fairly regularly, and have even had some argue with me
about God's love, as if they somehow believed they earned what we understand as grace,
which is a gift, and that freely given, and not based on any merit we possess within ourselves.

What I'd like to know is why Calvanists even bother to haunt a place like this. You're chosen; it's a done deal for you. And only the elect can be saved; nothing you can do or say makes any difference. What are you doing here? What are you trying to prove?

No one sinned to cause this man to be born blind. He was born blind so that the glory of God could be revealed.

The debate was that since sin was the result of every infirmity and problem the sin must be either corporate or individual in nature. Because instances of both sides could be found the debate between corporate sin vx individual sin caused the blindness.

Now with faith in God became wide open to the Gentiles....who sinned to cause God not to reveal himself in a fashion to cause saving knowledge to be believed by various people? (Sins of the father to the 3rd and 4th generation)

But God....
He can pull a rose out of a pile of manure every time. And Jesus explained this.

Who develops passion and who does not is not God's choice. It's the people themselves. They are the clay and God is the Master Potter. Some clay doesn't make vessels.

God is also omnipotent. ALL Power is his...all power returns to Him...God is perfectly efficient in everything He does.

There is an underlying theme in all of scripture starting with Genesis creation account and going through all of scripture through Revelations. It's a 3-4-7 pattern that has a metaphorical meaning of "Mankind from every corner of the Earth and God Tabernacling together completely and forever"

I know that this goes above many people's ability to "fact check"
But before you discount what I'm saying out of hand. Think about if it's in defiance of scripture.

That is a very good question.

This passages addresses the Calvinism/Arminianism debate?

It does not.

If we look more closely at the story of the blind man, in John 9:1-41, we'll find it has nothing do to with predestination for salvation... it has nothing to do with the Calvinism/Arminianism debate.


The Passage:
- This passage is not about eternal salvation or even repentance... those are not even addressed.
- This passage is about the causes of human suffering, during our earthly lifetime.
- The principle issue is whether suffering comes from the sins of the parents, or the sins of the individual.
- Christ was showing that suffering is not necessarily the result of sin, and that it can it be caused by God for some greater purpose, such as in this particular case (but not necessarily all cases).
- Nowhere is there a discussion of predestination vs free will for salvation.
- This passage is about human suffering, and that we should be more gracious about human suffering, because we often have no understanding of the true cause.


Conclusion:
- This passages says nothing about predestination for salvation, or free will for salvation.
- It does not even address this issue.
- It addresses causes for suffering.
- And even in addressing causes for salvation, and in showing that God is sometimes the direct cause for suffering, it in no way negates other causes for suffering in other situations.
* Regarding the Calvinism/Arminianism debate: this passages neither confirms nor denies either position... it is talking about something else entirely.



God Bless, and have a lovely Sunday.
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Isaiah 48:10 ~ I have tested you in the furnace of affliction

Remember that the Pharisees and Sadducees would rather argue than recognize the miracle or the importance of it?

You just picked a side of the debate and missed the miracle.

Calvinism is neither miraculous nor important. If I have missed something here, please tell.

If you are trying to point out to the OPer that God did not create this man simply to be a vessel of suffering and wrath for now and eternity, then I agree 100%.

I was talking to maxwell about missing the miracle of the man born blind now having sight. According to the Sanhidrin only God was capable of such a miracle....but then the sanhidrin got so caught up in their argument over corporate vx individual sin they forgot to glorify the miracle and what it meant....that God was indeed walking among them. Such is the case of those who take up the Calvinism vx Arminianism debate. They dismiss the miracle to continue their pre-eminent argument.

Sin is the reason some are doomed to everlasting death....
forgiveness/Atonement is the reason for everlasting life.

Pointing fingers at the root cause of the problem is NOT OUR JOB!
(Which is the focus of Calvinism/Arminianism debate)

I didn't pick any side of any debate.

I said, specifically, the passage in John 9 neither confirms nor denies either theological position, because it wasn't even addressing them.



CLARIFICATION:
- The argument about sin in John 9, and whether it's caused by the individual or the individual's parents, is not even a Calvinist/Arminian debate.
- It cannot be a Calvinist/Arminian debate, because there is no Calvinist position included!
- The argument is that the individual could cause his own suffering (will of man) or the individual's suffering could be caused by his parents (will of of man.) There is no Calvinist position. If anything, the original debate would be two differing views on the "will of man."
- Then at the last, Jesus came along and said there is sometimes (but not necessarily always) a different cause for suffering... it can sometimes be caused directly by God, by his direct hand, for some greater purpose.
* This passage is about causes for human suffering, and how there can be many causes, and we don't always understand the cause... it has nothing to do with the Calvinism/Arminianism debate.





God Bless.

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It's what Jesus meant by what He said...which you are only just beginning to unpack. Keep going....you are on the right path so far.

According to my understanding of history, Calvin persecuted those that did not agree with him to the point of death often.

It looks like he carried the same heart of his mother church he protested over...

Correct me if I am wrong.

It’s not a simple fact of Scripture.

They like to feel special like God wanted them for something they are. It's just like adding works to salvation sometimes. I think they loose salvation if they were irresistibly chosen because of their good. You're no better than the lost.

I do believe in election as the scriptures present it.

To me it is humbling to think GOD would choose to push me into a corner and open my eyes.

I would fear to think that I have somehow earned something.

If anything, I think that somewhere in my forefathers someone loved Him and covenanted with Him and I may be reaping from their life and not my own. Just something I think about sometimes.

Still, it is humbling. I also think that what He has done for me is because He is merciful to those that are groping around in the dark seeking more than what is offered in their life. Deep calls to Deep...

I do not agree that it is something that we let become a divisive doctrine in the Body of Christ.