Christ kept the Law of Moses, so....

what i said

“there’s no justification before God if someone does their best to obey Moses' laws.”

your response

“Ok, thanks. I wanted to be sure where you were coming from before I replied. The portion in red is what I contend is incorrect.”

Some Bible verses I’ve already quoted to you

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. ( we don’t want that position of bieng under the curse)

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: ( we don’t want a law that’s not of faith because the just live by faith not by a law that’s not of faith ) but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

another sections of scriptures I would point you to investigate

“But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ;

that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:1, 4‬ ‭KJV‬

We are married to this word because the end of the law for any sinner is death when they are killed fornthier sin and hanged on a tree as a warning to all under law

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; ( that is of faith because it’s a promise that if you believe and are baptized you will be saved )

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”( and it’s a warning that if you don’t believe you’ll be damned )
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it isn’t saying “ if you don’t keep every single word I said perfectly you see cursed forever “ ( your life depends on how holy you can be against a law no one keeps perfectly )

it is saying hear and believe the true gospel of Jesus Christ and get baptized for remission of your sins in his name ( because you believe jesus died for your sins Roman’s 6 )

In baptism , God recognizes the persons death in Christs death burial and resurrection this means law is fulfilled for the dead person

“And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: his body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭21:22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

after they are buried it’s over they are dead in a curse there’s nothing about after this , they have died and the law is only applicable to you until you die for your sins

jesus is the propitiation for our sins , when we get baptized believing in Jesus God sees it like we died for our sins so the law has ended and righteousness is found in hearing and believing the gospel of the one who died for sin

When you repent and believe the gospel it means this

“For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And it means this

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And it means this

“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:21, 24-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And this

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And this

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48-

There are two covenants to in the Bible one was mediated by Moses intercession , Moses relationship with God , Moses words and judgements

The other covenant is the one promised throughout the old covenant under the law by all the prophets including Moses

the one who the messiah Immanuel God in the flesh would mediate , it would be based on him , his intercession and sacrifice of his blood , his name , his position of the children of God , his word , his law that he would speak when he came

“For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, When I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; Because they continued not in my covenant, And I regarded them not, saith the Lord.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭8:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭51:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭55:3‬ ‭

Moses law isn’t Christian law brother it’s throughout the New Testament plainly everywhere you look

“The law and the prophets were until John: ( old covenant )

since that time the kingdom of God is preached,( new covenant ) and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

All anyone on earth ever has to do is hear the true gospel and believe in Jesus Christ and that’s going to bring them to repentance and they Weill begin to learn and grow from the lord

you can’t learn this

“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:38-42‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If your also trying to obey this

“eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭21:24-

I am afraid I'm losing track of what exactly the points you are making on this thread. Gentiles need to keep the law of Moses? Keep the 10 Commandments? Keep the moral laws of God? Continually heed the Voice from Mount Sinai? Keep the ordinances of acts 15?

You are losing me here......

and I said this

“In fact, at many points, you could obey Moses' word and it would make you break Jesus' word because they are contrary”

Heres one example of you want I can give you several but I’m not sure it’s going to matter I hope so

“For the law was given by Moses,( old covenant )

but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”( new covenant )
‭‭John‬ ‭1:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Moses law of marriage and divorce

“When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭24:1-2‭KJV‬‬

That’s pretty plainly written but if I live by that law of Moses look what it would mean as a Christian who believes in Jesus

“The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?

He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.


(NOw what Jesus says about that )

And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭19:3-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if I obey Moses law I’m going to be an adulterer according to Jesus word

It’s not possible to obey Moses and Jesus simultaneously we can’t be like this regarding sinners as Moses taught in his law

“When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭25:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭19:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭22:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we have to believe in Jesus and what he taught

“Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. ( he caused them to not obey Moses law to stone adulterers )

When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:5, 7, 10-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Neither covenant says “ go ahead and freely sin without regard “ or anything like that bro it’s just that Jesus can save our souls and Moses never could eve. Save his own

To hear jesus word we have to remove the blindfold of Moses law its not for the born again we have a better law

“and not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

but their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:13-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


In other words we can’t follow Moses word as born again Christian’s with the holy spirit, we have to follow Christ who gave us his spirit the law is good and true but it’s not for saving it’s for bringing the world to guilt for sin so they will turn to the savior

You threw a lot at me, Pilgrimshope, so forgive the length.


During the gospels the problem was...

The Pharisees said they follow Moses' words (though not really) and outright rejected Messiah's words.


Respectfully, Today the problem seems to be flipped...

Gentiles say they follow Messiah's words (though more so their interpretation of Paul's) and outright reject Moses' words.


One group turns to the right, and the other group turns to the left. However, the truth is found somewhere in the middle with both. This is why the very last book states that the patience of those who are called "saints" is both: to obey the commandments and have faith in Messiah. We must reconcile how these two things fit together because scripture says they fit together. Also, recall that those who are part of the bride in heaven are said to "sing the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb". (Rev 15:3) Two songs of victory.

Messiah says in John that Moses' writings are the foundation to understand and believe His words. Messiah, Himself said this. If Moses' words are not treated as the foundation that Messiah's words expand upon, but instead as a separate thing that Messiah's words contradict, then we miss the mark when understanding Messiah's words. Peter warned of a similar thing when understanding Paul's words, saying if we are not secure in the foundation (Moses) we will twist Paul's words.

----

You're reading this like "Vs.", instead of like "supplemental." The law came through Moses but the truth (i.e. the proper interpretation of that law) and grace (i.e. the divine strength & guidance to obey it) came through Messiah.


Marriage/Divorce Law

The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

Q: Did the law say a wife can be divorced for any reason?
A: No. See your passages. The question already revealed an incorrect understanding of the marriage law.


‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭24:1-2‭KJV‬‬
“When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.


Uncleanness. Iniquity. Found in her. The law never said for any reason. The Messiah explains that in marriage two become one flesh never to be separated. Pharisees then asked why is it allowed at all and Messiah says because of people's corrupt hearts, He then clarifies:


‭‭Matthew‬ ‭19:9‬
Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.”


Q: Does a person caught in fornication satisfy the condition of uncleanness/iniquity that must be found in them?
A: Yes.

----

The Woman Caught In Adultery

The scribes and Pharisees, however, brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before them and said, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law, Moses commanded us to stone such a woman. So what do You say?”

Q: Did the law say to bring just the woman to judgment?
A: No. BOTH parties must be judged for the sin, not just the woman.


Leviticus 20:10
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must surely be put to death.

Deut 22:22
If a man is found lying with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.


BOTH. Man AND Woman. The Pharisees were in violation because they only brought the woman. And how in the world did they know she was committing adultery...unless one (or more) of them there - accusing her - also committed the sin with her? Or at best, they were hiding the man who did, being partial with the law. Messiah answers:


John 8:7
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.


Q: Would it have been an injustice to stone just her and not the guilty man too?
A: Yes.

----

Eye for an Eye

Matthew 5:38-39
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.


Q: Is the person who commits the injury guilty of sin?
A: Yes.


Exodus 21:22-25
If men who are fighting strike a pregnant woman and her child is born prematurely,e but there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband demands and as the court allows. But if a serious injury results, then you must require a life for a life— eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, and stripe for stripe.

Leviticus 24:17-21
And if a man takes the life of anyone else, he must surely be put to death. Whoever kills an animal must make restitution—life for life. If anyone injures his neighbor, whatever he has done must be done to him: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. Just as he injured the other person, the same must be inflicted on him.

21 Whoever kills an animal must make restitution, but whoever kills a man must be put to death.

Deut 19:16-21
If a false witness testifies against someone, accusing him of a crime, both parties to the dispute must stand in the presence of the LORD, before the priests and judges who are in office at that time. The judges shall investigate thoroughly, and if the witness is proven to be a liar who has falsely accused his brother, you must do to him as he intended to do to his brother. So you must purge the evil from among you. Then the rest of the people will hear and be afraid, and they will never again do anything so evil among you. You must show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth,d hand for hand, and foot for foot.


Q: Is the victim of the injury guilty of sin?
A: No. The victim did not violate the law.


Q: Who is Messiah talking to in Matthew 5:38-39?
A: The Victim


The victim is not guilty of sin. The victim did not transgress the law. The other party did. The victim has every right under the law to receive remedy for injury from the one guilty of sin against them...but Messiah is teaching them to forgive the debt, which also satisfies the law. If there is no injury because the debt is forgiven then no remedy is needed.


Messiah said this in Matthew 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


Pharisees were corrupt and partial with the law. If you followed the Pharisees' understanding you wouldn't have been following Moses, you would've been following the Pharisees. The Messiah never violated or contradicted or taught against God's law (as given through Moses) because that would've made Him a sinner (God forbid). he was correcting their misapplication an misunderstanding.

This is why Messiah said they turn converts into two-fold sons of hell; that they didn't actually follow Moses because Messiah's words would make sense to them if they did.

----

2 Corinthians 2:13-16
“and not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

but their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.”


^Amen to this passage. Can you see how this just happened in the examples you shared? The problem isn't Moses...that's not what Paul is saying here. The problem is that there is still a veil over our minds and hearts when reading Moses even until this very day. We must as that this veil be taken away.

\/

Exactly as i said, the truth about circumcision leaves 2 possible conclusions - and you chose that "jots and tittles are being removed from the Law all the time" - going further, that they are also added to the Law.

Rendering Matthew 5:18 null, in your position.

Has then all been fulfilled?

sure nonissue with length brother I actually enjoy length in responses but you haven’t acknowledged what the Bible says yet your just avoiding it by explaining a view you have.

I’ve goven you scriptures from the New Testament explaining every point I made clearly and plainly but your willing to accept it

I’m much more about hearing and believing what the Bible says

I see it like this paul is a chosen apostle and revelator of Jesus filled with the holy spirit , he and John and Peter are the ones explaining this stuff to the church In the epistles

So my mind works purposely like this of i wonder “what purpose does the law of Moses have in a gods plan for Christians? “
What I try to do is go see what Jesus said and the apostles wrote later about my question like this

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:

for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

When I read that it begins to answer my question about the purpose of the law. It tells me what the law says is for those under the law so all the entire world can be made guilty before god without excuse and it tells me the deeds of the law cannot justify anyone before God but by the law we come to know sin

Why would I think such a thing ?

Here’s another version maybe the kjv is making it hard for you to read

“Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and that the whole world be held Guilty before God.

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law , we know and become conscious of our sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Do you see my point at all ? That’s how we learn we have to be willing to let go of our opinion we thought now you and I both know everything the law says is for the purpose of bringing every person on the world to guilt before God no one can say “ I’m. Not a sinner “ because of the law . And we also Know the deeds written on Moses law can’t justify anyone but we can become aware of sin bu the law

can we both agree there ? Not because I’m saying it but because Paul’s clearly saying it . If we can brother then consider what Paul taught about the law but first consider how plain the very first thing we discussed is

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: but that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:5-6, 19-20, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s really clear what happened right ?

Early on in the church some sects of Pharisees had converted to Christianity and believed Jesus was the messiah afterwards and joined the church but they couldn’t let go of the law they belonged to before son th y began sayong just what’s plainly written there

there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying,

That it was needful to circumcise them,

and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. “

So far it’s basic and plain wonder what the elders and apostles will decide about this matter ? And what would they tell the church about it in their letter ?

Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: but that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

this is what they said in the letter To the church after deciding this


forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

Brother if you want to discuss what the Bible says about Moses law we have to acknowledge what it says to Christians in the New Testament

I don’t think it’s going to bear fruit because see this for example , I don’t think your even willing to investigate what this means which adds to that question “ what is the law for in Gods plan ?

“Wherefore then serveth the law?

It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Now a mediator is not a mediator of one,

but God is one.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think that’s just not going to even make you curious or this

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a I don’t think you can acknolwedge th e statement part of it but it’s actually the apostle Paul revealing things no one understood before they received the spirit we’re supposed to read it and believe what he’s saying , not ignore what he’s saying and conclude the opposite

To me it’s about removing all interpretation and just accepting what’s there I’ve given you a tone of scripture to go back and consider but read the sections where they came from also it will change your view of you do that but arguing opinions isnt really my thing I’m just about believing what is already explained so plainly in the nt

So I’m not sure we’re going to find much fruit on the matter only if we could acknolwedge first what the Bible says then we could come to agree

First you would have to acknolwedge there are two covenants

Jesus explained what he said

“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law,

till all be fulfilled.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:17-18‬ ‭

then after he died and rose he explained it

“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:44-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So what Jesus said in Matthew five is fulfilled and he interprets it for us saying it and then recalling what he said and explaining it

rheres a reason Jesus didn’t say “ go preach Moses law to every creature and they shall be saved “

because if they did that no one could be saved but this would happen

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It would just condemn everyone as sinners and everyone would wish they had a savior to save them from the condemnation just someone they could believe in and hear his word and teachings and follow him someone merciful , truthful , faithful someone who loves them so much he would give his own life to save thiers

and we would all still be living by Moses words which are contrary to Jesus words

If we don't agree on the definition of "the law of moses", its hard to agree on the other points.

Jesus did take them aside after He rose and explained the bible (old testament) that he fulfilled.

Luk 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

The things concerning Jesus.
The prophesies and types that pointed to Jesus's life death and resurrection were explained.

But sin is still present today.
We still need to be forgiven of sin today.
Condemnation is still present because the law is still present. But we are free from condemnation by the body of Christ and by walking in the Spirit.

The laws that define sin are not removed.

The grace is freely given to those that realize their need.

No law = no need for grace.

How do you reconcile Romans 8:1 with your statement that condemnation is still present?

John 1:14-17

If His second coming is written of in Moses, the prophets and the songs then not everything of Him is presently fulfilled.

But it is not because the Law does not anymore govern those under it that we have been made free - but because the Law has no jurisdiction over those who have died, and we have died, with Him, being raised also in Him to walk no longer by the letter but by the Spirit.

The Law stands and condemns all who are under it - there is no more sacrifice, no temple in Jerusalem, so no one under the Law has any hope of atonement.

If it is by the same Spirit that the Law was written Who now makes us alive, then clearly walking in Him it is the same righteousness that we pursue, yet not because we are beholden to the Law but because the Author of the Law is the same Author of our salvation and He lives and works in us.

Today there are no more problems. For the saved. As far as the sin is concerned. You can't prosecute a dead man for all of the sins he has committed. And the new reborn man is perfectly righteous and holy. So he doesn't have a sin problem either.

You are way, way out in left field with all of this law-keeping business. It seems to me you are fighting windmills. Just saying bro.

sorry but i don't see anything in scripture saying any of these things are true.

how can James say breaking any of the Law makes you guilty of all of it if the Law is so ill-defined, subject to private interpretation about what it consists of, & in constant flux?

but the Law is not ill-defined: it is Torah, all of Torah.

The law that existed prior to Sinai was the rule of “the Son of His love”. By this, that they only do what their Father tells them, Adam and Eve lived with clear direction and purpose. Likewise, all the sons of God (as were Adam and Eve) lived by the same standard. It was when Adam and Eve chose to live by their own direction, that their direction became skewed away from the straight and narrow path, sin.

Good ideas there. I was thinking along these same lines.

We DO hear the same Voice from Mt. Sinai in effect. The Voice that the Israelites did NOT want to hear.

We, as sons of the Father (the King's kids) heed His voice, and get the woodshed when we are disobedient. Everybody else gets the Judge and the courtroom and an inevitable guilty verdict.

I don't know what countervailing argument @Yahshua can possibly proffer to dispute this devastating truth.
So much for law-keeping. Jesus is the only solution to this insoluble dilemma. As it should be and as it has been written in all the law and prophets and psalms since the world began.

Luk 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

“But sin is still present today.
We still need to be forgiven of sin today.
Condemnation is still present because the law is still present. But we are free from condemnation by the body of Christ and by walking in the Spirit.”


“We still need to be forgiven of sin today.”

brother that’s my point there is no forgivness under the law it can’t forgive sin because of the ordination over it ,

“Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭23:20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

all of the forgivness of sin brother is what Jesus is talking about “ repentance and remission of sins “ the the New Testament “

you can see Gods plan to forgive man’s sin in the old testsment his plan was to make a new covenant not according to the old which held every sinner guilty heres what I’m talking about

“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:


but this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:31-34‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Can you acknowledge that there are two seperate covenants in the Bible ?

Brother one other thing if a person goes only to Jesus and learns from him and follows him that person is never going to live in sin again if we actually took the gospel seriously and learned from Jesus and believed and followed just him even if we never heard Moses word at all , that person would be saved and would also come to repentance and righteousness much faster than someone who knows every element of the law the more one learns about Moses law the more sinful they realize they were that’s what it’s meant to do

Im positive the sticking point is that there are two covenants in the Bible the ot law of Moses and the gospel the law of Christ

Chrirtians belong solely to Christ and his doctrine the New Testament will save souls

At he one from Sinai creates bondage

“Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants;

the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And the other sets free

Sinners can be saved by Jesus , the law makes us aware we’re sinners , Jesus saves us from our sins and teaches us to be a child of God


If people could acknolwedge there are two covenants one made from Sinai the other made by Jesus when he came from heaven I think it’s going to be pretty simple

Brother the Old Testament is about Jesus first coming about what he would do when he came his teaching his miraculous power his sacrifice and resurrection the coming of the messiah his acsention to heavens throne all of what happens in the gospel is what e old testament had prophesied the gospel to come and it was fulfilled

You learn about his second coming from Jesus and his apostles in the New Testament

“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The end of the prophets writings

“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭3:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The fulfillment

“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, Which shall prepare thy way before thee. John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:1-2, 4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

No none recognizes this much the final two verses of the prophets

“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: and he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭4:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

People read this as a second coming that hasn’t happened yet but Jesus explains it to those with ears

“And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elijah must first come?

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elijah truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elijah is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed.( they beheaded him )


Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭17:9-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Everything the Old Testament said about the messiah coming being born of a virgin , dying for sin receiving the holt spirit being ordained king forever ascending to heaven in the clouds , his doctrine speaking the true words of God the new covenant they were promised in the days to come ect

The New Testament teaches us about the return of jesus with the angels and salvation

He came once to fulfill the Old Testament which promises his coming

he will return to fulfill the New Testament which promises his return

The law and prophets were until John and the law has changed from what Moses said to what jesus said

“If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭7:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

everything has changed not Moses the intercessor and mediators words but Jesus the messiah the intercessor and mediator , not the leviticle preosthood under Moses ordained of angels , the priesthood of melchezidek under Christ ordained of God

not animal sacrifice a willing sacrifice of himself

Not eye for an eye like the law said , but turn the other cheek like the lord said

The law of Moses and the ot prophets concerning the Messiah are fulfilled brother

Summary of the message is this same thing Jesus said

“Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

that Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭26:22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Moses and the prophets were about the coming of the messiah , Jesus and the apostles are about his return from heaven

It appears his argument is that those particular jots and tittles of the law were arbitrarily removed without God ever actually saying so.

Such that men essentially have authority to abrogate the Torah any way they see fit, according to whatever they happen to think beneficially suits their own particular situation, without God having given any word concerning it.

This seems completely indefensible to me, however many people who place themselves under **selected parts of** the Law weirdly consider it a rock-solid defense.

???