Doctrine of Unconditional Election
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Yes, I agree with that totally. They broke the Mosaic Covenant. And God punished them for it. But because of the nature of the Abrahamic Covenant, it has nothing to do with their faithfulness but God's because He essentially made the covenant with Himself. He alone passed through the animals when Abe was asleep. Wow I would kill for a good deep sleep like that. smh
Sorry, it got a little late last night. Yes, I'm not saying Jews are saved because they are Jews, not simply because they are descendants of Abe. Jews who will be saved will be saved by faith, through the cross like the rest of us. As I mentioned the verses before that said they will recognize their Messiah and mourn once they are blinded no longer. The Jews were proud of their heritage and thought it was all they needed. But Jesus told them their heritage wouldn't save them. They have to go through Christ like we all do.
Sure, no problem. I was too. But just to be completely clear, you are saying their relationship/physical linage to the nation of Israel plays no part whatsoever in their salvation, and those who do become saved become so because they have been chosen individually by God just as everyone else is (although I realize that you do not accept election). Besides election, would you say that is an accurate portrayal of your belief? I thought the verse was extremely interesting in that it informs us that none of the physical children of Abraham - the Jews - are the children of God therefore meaning that the nation of Israel cannot be the nation of God.
Now, if you would, please refresh my mind - what was the original topic that caused us to get into this - I can't remember now - lol?
[Rom 9:8 KJV]
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Now, if you would, please refresh my mind - what was the original topic that caused us to get into this - I can't remember now - lol?
[Rom 9:8 KJV]
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Yes, that is pretty much it, but I do believe in election, just not unto salvation.
Hahah it seems we're going from Genesis through to the maps here. I think the issue here is that I believe in dispensations. I believe God has set aside a remnant of Jews as per Romans 11. I believe that based on the one covenant that was unconditional, the Abrahamic Covenant. Hosea shows us a picture of God's grace and unmerited favor. Even after His people had been unfaithful He said "return to me". In Romans He says He is able to graft in again the Jews again. I could go further but then we would be talking about the anti-Christ and how he will betray the Jews. That may be too far from the OP and they may not appreciate that.
Hahah it seems we're going from Genesis through to the maps here. I think the issue here is that I believe in dispensations. I believe God has set aside a remnant of Jews as per Romans 11. I believe that based on the one covenant that was unconditional, the Abrahamic Covenant. Hosea shows us a picture of God's grace and unmerited favor. Even after His people had been unfaithful He said "return to me". In Romans He says He is able to graft in again the Jews again. I could go further but then we would be talking about the anti-Christ and how he will betray the Jews. That may be too far from the OP and they may not appreciate that.
But wouldn't that mean that God still has a special relation with Israel, which I thought we agreed, they don't.
So, the covenant you referenced cannot be eternal nor unconditional because we've demonstrated that the
physical Jews are not the people of God -that was the point of the verse I asked you to interpret.
God divorced the nation of Israel and by it ended their unique relationship with Him.
Here it is again.
[Jer 3:8 KJV]
8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
So, the covenant you referenced cannot be eternal nor unconditional because we've demonstrated that the
physical Jews are not the people of God -that was the point of the verse I asked you to interpret.
God divorced the nation of Israel and by it ended their unique relationship with Him.
Here it is again.
[Jer 3:8 KJV]
8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
Romans 11
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
He is speaking to real people, not spiritual people. His own kin. The Jews.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (of Jews)
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Now speaking to the Gentiles.
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
God is able to graft them back into their own tree.
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
He is speaking to real people, not spiritual people. His own kin. The Jews.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (of Jews)
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
unto this day.9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Now speaking to the Gentiles.
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
God is able to graft them back into their own tree.
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
What makes a person a Jew Israelite Isrealie etc? Kinda of a silly question i am asking. would you then believe a person who is by human blood 50% Jewish is half saved
I believe the saved what ever the nationality, are all saved by the Blood of Jesus not the blood they are born with but the Blood from above.
FYI i spent about 40 years in Dispensationalism
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https://www.openbible.info/topics/unconditional
Unconditional election is usually understood as predestination.
https://biblehub.com/greek/4309.htm
Unconditional election is usually understood as predestination.
https://biblehub.com/greek/4309.htm
Well we believe the same. I really don't like to use the many names used here. Even with Calvinism I realize some don't want to be fully identified with all of his views. So I don't fully know all dispys believe but I agree with your statement. But I do also believe that right now some of the Jews are blinded for a time and will come to know their Messiah later.
But the Abrahamic Covenant is unconditional, I showed you how a covenant is formed and how God walked between the animals making it unconditional. In Hosea, God is still calling to His people to repent. If He had divorced them, He wouldn't still be calling to them. So God still has a special relation with a restored Israel, a future Israel. In Rom. it says they are blinded until the Gentiles come in. Then the restoration will begin. If a person can believe they are elected and saved eternally, why can they not also believe in a Chosen people, who have an unconditional covenant, a remnant who will be saved, just as Romans 11 says.
thererosealamb
Then you dont believe in biblical election because its unto Salvation 2 Thess 2:13
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
And as Paul gives example, its something God should be given thanks always for !
Then you dont believe in biblical election because its unto Salvation 2 Thess 2:13
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
And as Paul gives example, its something God should be given thanks always for !