Hell's Best Kept Secret Method method of evangelism and the Bible

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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#41
When it comes down to a believers witness to another, all you need to know is whether there is interest or not. If a person does not wish to hear about the Gospel - God's Truth revealed - then you know what you need to know. There is no work of Grace in this person's heart.
I spent a period of about eight years conversing with non-believers of various stripes on a couple of different sites before joining here. During that time, it is true, and I knew, they were not interested in hearing the Gospel, but the topic was always centred on God in some way, whether it was His character, the reason why people believe, the effects of belief upon the world, God's plan for humanity, man's condition before God, the reason for the incarnation, and etc. Sometimes it became necessary to quote Scriptures to them, because they would say such things as, "The Bible says," when it did not, or, "The Bible does not say," when it actually does. Sometimes they would ask a question that required quoting the Bible in order to answer. The long term effects of this time I spent cannot be known by me during the course of my life, because I do not know where any of those people are now. But I do trust that there was purpose in all of that, that I would liken to plowing a field to prepare it for receiving seed. Many times they could not escape the fact that they were not the person they wanted to believe they were, especially in the ways they compared themselves to believers. And it was also proven to them that not all believers behave in the ways they would normally broad brush believers to be. Time and time again they were brought face to face with some way in which they were thinking about something wrongly. Would they admit it? Ha. Hardly. But even stony ground can be prepared to receive the Truth of God's Word. One person does not do all the work, and in the final analysis, it is the Holy Spirit of God Who would bring them to repentance.
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
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#42
It says this,


Matthew 10:15
Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!
(NKJV)
That sir, was not the quote in question... therefore, the question remains. Where did Christ say: "My miracles" said Jesus, "would have brought Sodom and Gomorrah to repentance if they had seen them"

I follow up with a second question. Where does Scripture say that anyone was saved because of a "miracle"?
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
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#43
I spent a period of about eight years conversing with non-believers of various stripes on a couple of different sites before joining here. During that time, it is true, and I knew, they were not interested in hearing the Gospel, but the topic was always centred on God in some way, whether it was His character, the reason why people believe, the effects of belief upon the world, God's plan for humanity, man's condition before God, the reason for the incarnation, and etc. Sometimes it became necessary to quote Scriptures to them, because they would say such things as, "The Bible says," when it did not, or, "The Bible does not say," when it actually does. Sometimes they would ask a question that required quoting the Bible in order to answer. The long term effects of this time I spent cannot be known by me during the course of my life, because I do not know where any of those people are now. But I do trust that there was purpose in all of that, that I would liken to plowing a field to prepare it for receiving seed. Many times they could not escape the fact that they were not the person they wanted to believe they were, especially in the ways they compared themselves to believers. And it was also proven to them that not all believers behave in the ways they would normally broad brush believers to be. Time and time again they were brought face to face with some way in which they were thinking about something wrongly. Would they admit it? Ha. Hardly. But even stony ground can be prepared to receive the Truth of God's Word. One person does not do all the work, and in the final analysis, it is the Holy Spirit of God Who would bring them to repentance.
Yes, I am afraid that many have a distorted view of what Scripture truly says. Often times I find it came from some Hollywood movie. You know, like the Ten Commandments, King of kings, etc... Sometimes, because they want it to be true.

I do think believers should witness to others for as long as the Lord has the door open but beating one over the head with a 2x4 or the Bible accomplishes nothing. If the Lord gives them Grace, they will remember the things you talked about.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,014
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#44
Yes, I am afraid that many have a distorted view of what Scripture truly says. Often times I find it came from some Hollywood movie. You know, like the Ten Commandments, King of kings, etc... Sometimes, because they want it to be true.

I do think believers should witness to others for as long as the Lord has the door open but beating one over the head with a 2x4 or the Bible accomplishes nothing. If the Lord gives them Grace, they will remember the things you talked about.
Even if they forget everything I said to them, they were still engaged in a process that might have some positive effect and eventually yield fruit. I do not remember everything they said to me ether, but I still remember some of them with fondness and affection, even and especially the ones who really tried the hardest to psychologically shred me and make inroads towards destroying my faith. I saw them have some success with others in this regard, and that was a very disturbing thing to witness, not just some measure of destruction of another's faith, but the rejoicing they partook of when they had any level of success in harming a believer. One time when I told my daughter how some of them spoke to me and the things they said, she was greatly dismayed, and asked me how I could stand it. By the grace of God is the only way I know. My own process of coming to believe was many decades long. Many contributed in some way, and I do not even know who all of them are. There are highlights, and low points when I knew God was moving in my life even as I remained in unbelief. I trust that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,162
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#45
That sir, was not the quote in question... therefore, the question remains. Where did Christ say: "My miracles" said Jesus, "would have brought Sodom and Gomorrah to repentance if they had seen them"

I follow up with a second question. Where does Scripture say that anyone was saved because of a "miracle"?
It sounds like you are trying to get me to answer someone else's question.

Do you not consider the resurrection of Jesus to be a miracle, btw?

I recall Sergius Paulus believed, astonished at the teaching of the Lord, after he saw Elymas struck blind. There were Samaritans who paid attention to Philip's preaching of the kingdom of God when they saw the miracles that he did.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
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#46
Exactly where did Jesus ever say what you have quoted here?

"My miracles" said Jesus, "would have brought Sodom and Gomorrah to repentance if they had seen them"
Luke 10 - 8 ....
Whenever you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you, heal the sick in it and say to them "the kingdom of God has come near to you." but whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into the streets and say "even the dust of your town that clings to our feet we wipe off against you, never the less know this, that the kingdom of God has come near "

I tell you it shall be more tolerable on that day for Sodom than for that town

Woe to you Chorazin woe to you Bethsada for if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes
But it will be more tolerable in the judgement for Tyre and Sidon than for you.
 

Evmur

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#47
That sir, was not the quote in question... therefore, the question remains. Where did Christ say: "My miracles" said Jesus, "would have brought Sodom and Gomorrah to repentance if they had seen them"

I follow up with a second question. Where does Scripture say that anyone was saved because of a "miracle"?
Nobody believes people are saved by miracles ... but their guilt is greatly increased when they do see miracles but refuse to believe or worse they attribute the miracles to the devil.

The point you miss is that more people flocked to Jesus and the apostles because they saw the signs which He did. Whole towns and villages in a sweep.

In China whole provinces have come to the Lord.

Moreover it is not up to puny you or puny me what gospel should be preached and in what order, whether soul salvation is the more important. We don't doubt that it is.

But the command is to go preach the good news, heal the sick and cast out devils.
 
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notonmywatch

Guest
#48
Luke 10 - 8 ....
Whenever you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you, heal the sick in it and say to them "the kingdom of God has come near to you." but whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into the streets and say "even the dust of your town that clings to our feet we wipe off against you, never the less know this, that the kingdom of God has come near "

I tell you it shall be more tolerable on that day for Sodom than for that town

Woe to you Chorazin woe to you Bethsada for if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes
But it will be more tolerable in the judgement for Tyre and Sidon than for you.
Which reminds me of this:

John 15

24If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
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#49
Luke 10 - 8 ....
Whenever you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you, heal the sick in it and say to them "the kingdom of God has come near to you." but whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into the streets and say "even the dust of your town that clings to our feet we wipe off against you, never the less know this, that the kingdom of God has come near "

I tell you it shall be more tolerable on that day for Sodom than for that town

Woe to you Chorazin woe to you Bethsada for if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes
But it will be more tolerable in the judgement for Tyre and Sidon than for you.
My point here, was that you put words in our Lord's mouth in which He did not say: "My miracles" said Jesus, "would have brought Sodom and Gomorrah to repentance if they had seen them" This is a dangerous thing to do... far worse than repeating what God has said incorrectly - such as eve did before the serpent.

Therefore, you were making a point, by means of a your collective interpretation. A point in which I cannot agree. The situation in Sodom and Gomorrah is well documented in Scripture. There was not even 10 righteous people there and I think one can infer that the their situation was equal to or far worse than Chorazin and Bethsaida's. Even so, this could be disputed.

Since Chorazin and Bethsaida are mentioned in Scripture, one should keep the comments relative to the Scriptural example. These two cities, in Galilee, were being contrasted with Tyre and Sidon; whose primary sin was the rejection of the God's Law. However, Chorazin and Bethsaida were guilty of rejecting the Gospel, the Messiah and the miracles which confirmed Jesus Christ as authentic.
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
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#50
Nobody believes people are saved by miracles ... but their guilt is greatly increased when they do see miracles but refuse to believe or worse they attribute the miracles to the devil.

The point you miss is that more people flocked to Jesus and the apostles because they saw the signs which He did. Whole towns and villages in a sweep.

In China whole provinces have come to the Lord.

Moreover it is not up to puny you or puny me what gospel should be preached and in what order, whether soul salvation is the more important. We don't doubt that it is.

But the command is to go preach the good news, heal the sick and cast out devils.
The point, you claim is lost on me - has not gone unnoticed by me. However, this in no way has any bearing on God's grace in Regeneration.
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
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#51
It sounds like you are trying to get me to answer someone else's question.

Do you not consider the resurrection of Jesus to be a miracle, btw?

I recall Sergius Paulus believed, astonished at the teaching of the Lord, after he saw Elymas struck blind. There were Samaritans who paid attention to Philip's preaching of the kingdom of God when they saw the miracles that he did.
In regards to your two questions -

1) I am not trying to get you to answer a question presented to another but you did post directly to me and I responded.
2) Yes, the resurrection of Jesus was a miracle. Perhaps one of the greatest miracles of all time. Most importantly, it proved the Father's acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice.
 

Evmur

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#52
The point, you claim is lost on me - has not gone unnoticed by me. However, this in no way has any bearing on God's grace in Regeneration.
you need to think

if more people are drawn to hear the gospel because they see the miracles done to the sick more people will be regenerated. Moreover healing and deliverance is not an added extra but is part of God's salvation package, fully included in the atonement Christ made at Calvary ... He bore our sicknesses and carried our pains. It is alongside atonement for sins.

You are not God, you are not like God ... God is compassionate.
 

Evmur

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#53
My point here, was that you put words in our Lord's mouth in which He did not say: "My miracles" said Jesus, "would have brought Sodom and Gomorrah to repentance if they had seen them" This is a dangerous thing to do... far worse than repeating what God has said incorrectly - such as eve did before the serpent.

Therefore, you were making a point, by means of a your collective interpretation. A point in which I cannot agree. The situation in Sodom and Gomorrah is well documented in Scripture. There was not even 10 righteous people there and I think one can infer that the their situation was equal to or far worse than Chorazin and Bethsaida's. Even so, this could be disputed.

Since Chorazin and Bethsaida are mentioned in Scripture, one should keep the comments relative to the Scriptural example. These two cities, in Galilee, were being contrasted with Tyre and Sidon; whose primary sin was the rejection of the God's Law. However, Chorazin and Bethsaida were guilty of rejecting the Gospel, the Messiah and the miracles which confirmed Jesus Christ as authentic.
so do YOU reject the full gospel, and the miracles which do authenticate Jesus as the Messiah, King of the Kingdom of God.

You believe a truncated gospel, half a gospel. you preach only part of the message you were given to deliver ... why? are you afraid that if you preach healing it will expose you as powerless?
 

Evmur

Well-known member
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#54
so do YOU reject the full gospel, and the miracles which do authenticate Jesus as the Messiah, King of the Kingdom of God.

You believe a truncated gospel, half a gospel. you preach only part of the message you were given to deliver ... why? are you afraid that if you preach healing it will expose you as powerless?
Are you saying the people of Sodom are more damned than the people of Tyre and Sidon? don't talk nonsense ... if the people of Tyre had seen Jesu's miracles they would have repented in dust and ashes.

What's up with you?

Either you have never seen genuine miracles or else seeing them you hardened your heart in unbelief. which is it?
 
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notonmywatch

Guest
#55
It is the job of the Holy Spirit to convict folks of sin, He does not need our help. Our job is to testify to Christ as God's [awesome, wonderful, truly magnificent] Saviour of mankind.
I'd have to disagree with you on this point.

Here is one of many reasons why:

Acts 17

16Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry. 17Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him. 18Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. 19And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is? 20For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean. 21(For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing) 22Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. 23For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. 24God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. 32And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter. 33So Paul departed from among them. 34Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

Paul's spirit was stirred when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry, and, THEREFORE, he disputed with these people in the synagogue and in the market daily. Part of his disputations included dealing with their superstitions and ignorance, and he clearly called them to repent in the light of a coming day of judgment after dealing with the same.

As Christians, we're called to be co-laborers with God, so we should never assume that the Holy Spirit does not need our help in relation to bringing the conviction of sin upon others. Some of us plant, some of us water, and then God alone can give the increase, but his increase is in direct relation to what has previously been planted and watered by men.

Jesus is the one who commissioned us to preach repentance. How can we tell people to repent without first informing them what they need to repent of?

Again, it is the sick who need a physician, and most people think that they're perfectly healthy, spiritually-speaking, when they're anything but the same. God's law brings the knowledge of sin. There's nothing wrong with using it in our preaching as an introduction or forerunner to the grace of God.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
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#56
I'd have to disagree with you on this point.

Here is one of many reasons why:

Acts 17

16Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry. 17Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him. 18Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. 19And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is? 20For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean. 21(For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing) 22Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. 23For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. 24God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. 32And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter. 33So Paul departed from among them. 34Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

Paul's spirit was stirred when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry, and, THEREFORE, he disputed with these people in the synagogue and in the market daily. Part of his disputations included dealing with their superstitions and ignorance, and he clearly called them to repent in the light of a coming day of judgment after dealing with the same.

As Christians, we're called to be co-laborers with God, so we should never assume that the Holy Spirit does not need our help in relation to bringing the conviction of sin upon others. Some of us plant, some of us water, and then God alone can give the increase, but his increase is in direct relation to what has previously been planted and watered by men.

Jesus is the one who commissioned us to preach repentance. How can we tell people to repent without first informing them what they need to repent of?
Again, it is the sick who need a physician, and most people think that they're perfectly healthy, spiritually-speaking, when they're anything but the same. God's law brings the knowledge of sin. There's nothing wrong with using it in our preaching as an introduction or forerunner to the grace of God.
Repent simply means to change direction, change your mind. there IS no condemnation in Paul's sermon. Only instruction.
 
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notonmywatch

Guest
#57
Repent simply means to change direction, change your mind. there IS no condemnation in Paul's sermon. Only instruction.
They were called to repentance in order to not face condemnation on the coming day of judgment when God will judge the world in righteousness through Jesus Christ. It is condemned men and women who need salvation. If somebody doesn't know that they presently stand condemned, then they're not going to be looking to be saved. God gave us consciences which either excuse or accuse us, and the law was similarly given by God to show everyone in the world that they are condemned apart from Christ. There's nothing wrong with using God's law in our witnessing to the lost. Especially since many of them don't even know that they're lost.
 

Evmur

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#58
It is not "dragging people through the mud" to show them what is written in Romans 3. That is the Word of God, and every person who needs salvation needs to see how God views him or her.

ROMANS 3: THE TRUE SPIRITUAL CONDITION OF ALL MANNKIND
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.


So after reading this portion of Scripture it is perfectly legitimate to ask "Do you accept God's verdict -- that you are guilty before God?" Then it is time to present the Gospel.
This was written to Christians. You can track Paul's sermons to the unsaved in His message to the Corinth when he first arrived there and at Mars Hill ... he didn't preach those things there.

Jesus didn't speak to anyone like that ... except perhaps the religious leaders.

Come unto Me all ye who are heavy laden and weary, learn from Me for I am lowly of heart and you shall find rest for your souls.

Anybody thirsty? ... come to Me and drink
 

Evmur

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#59
They were called to repentance in order to not face condemnation on the coming day of judgment when God will judge the world in righteousness through Jesus Christ. It is condemned men and women who need salvation. If somebody doesn't know that they presently stand condemned, then they're not going to be looking to be saved. God gave us consciences which either excuse or accuse us, and the law was similarly given by God to show everyone in the world that they are condemned apart from Christ. There's nothing wrong with using God's law in our witnessing to the lost. Especially since many of them don't even know that they're lost.
God will use His word, ALL of God's word are powerful, shouting them does not make them more powerful.

"The thief has come only to steal and to kill and destroy you but I am come that you might have life and have it more abundantly"

That's powerful.

I BELIEVE in true heart repentance, FULL repentance, I believe in putting to death the deeds of the flesh .... I wish that a lot of brimstone and hellfire preachers did.
 
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notonmywatch

Guest
#60
God will use His word, ALL of God's word are powerful, shouting them does not make them more powerful.

"The thief has come only to steal and to kill and destroy you but I am come that you might have life and have it more abundantly"

That's powerful.

I BELIEVE in true heart repentance, FULL repentance, I believe in putting to death the deeds of the flesh .... I wish that a lot of brimstone and hellfire preachers did.
Who said anything about shouting?

God's word is likened to the sword of the Spirit.

Do I need to charge at somebody, while shouting, in order to stick them with a sword?

No, I don't. I can easily do so calmly and softly, but I'm not going to dull my sword's edge either.

Psalm 19

7The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Why are you arguing against something that is perfect in relation to converting one's soul?