I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

This is a puzzling aspect of Christianity. I ask if there may also be aspects of the following which were part of the "Reformation'?
If anyone is interested in this thread, you should read Gill's comments posted here first. Scroll down.

What more than Gill's comments can be said about this verse? I was reading wiki about Manicheans, and they likely continued with Zoroastrian doctrine and then in 18th century London at St. Mary Le Bow church there were sermons to counter Manichean influence.
The pamphlet published with the sermons referenced the same verse from Isaiah.

Is there likely, still Manichean influence in the Christian churches today? Charles Spurgeon may have been referring to Manichean doctrine in a sermon where he was talking about 'counterfeit' Christian doctrine. Unfortunately, I don't recall which sermon it was. It does seem to be a subtle variation of doctrine that is not readily discerned. Apparently, it deals with the way good and evil are understood. Very puzzling?

Very interesting in wiki article on Manicheans is the implication that Manicheanism was the likely religion which the Roman empire was initially persecuting starting in the 3rd century. Was the similarity of Manichean and Christian religions difficult to distinguish by Romans? Could this have been intentional on the part of the 'Persians'? Not certain as to the relationship of Eastern Roman Empire and 'Persia' at that time.


Isaiah 45:7 Gill's comments in part.
I make peace, and create evil; peace between God and men is made by Christ, who is God over all; spiritual peace of conscience comes from God, through Christ, by the Spirit; eternal glory and happiness is of God, which saints enter into at death; peace among the saints themselves here, and with the men of the world; peace in churches, and in the world, God is the author of, even of all prosperity of every kind, which this word includes: "evil" is also from him; not the evil of sin; this is not to be found among the creatures God made; this is of men, though suffered by the Lord, and overruled by him for good: but the evil of punishment for sin, God's sore judgments, famine, pestilence, evil beasts, and the sword, or war, which latter may more especially be intended, as it is opposed to peace; this usually is the effect of sin; may be sometimes lawfully engaged in; whether on a good or bad foundation is permitted by God; moreover, all afflictions, adversities, and calamities, come under this name, and are of God; see Job 2:10,
I the Lord do all these things; and therefore must be the true God, and the one and only one. Kimchi, from Saadiah Gaon, observes, that this is said against those that assert two gods, the one good, and the other evil; whereas the Lord is the Maker of good and evil, and therefore must be above all; and it is worthy of observation, that the Persian Magi, before Zoroastres (m), held two first causes, the one light, or the good god, the author of all good; and the other darkness, or the evil god, the author of all evil; the one they called Oromazes, the other Arimanius; and, as Dr. Prideaux observes,
"these words are directed to Cyrus king of Persia, and must be understood as spoken in reference to the Persian sect of the Magians; who then held light and darkness, or good and evil, to be the supreme Beings, without acknowledging the great God as superior to both;''
and which these words show; for Zoroastres, who reformed them in this first principle of their religion, was after Isaiah's time.

Evil is not sin, for man to partake the knowledge of evil is sin.

Is that the same as saying water is not wet but rather it makes you wet?

the point is some people get very cross if you say God created evil, but God did create evil, evil has a purpose. But man is not created evil or for evil or to partake the knowledge of it.

God said leave it alone.

Simple, just post the scripture that says God created evil.

Only a few versions of the bible actually translate this verse as "create evil".

I will read all later but I have heard the "evil " linked to the weather events that God controls and employs sometimes in judgment. Thus, evil is not in terms of morality but outcome in human terms.

That verse should say calamities or adversity or something similar and pertains to natural disasters.
BROWN DRIVER BRIGGS
1 evil, distress, adversity: יָרֵא רַע fear evil Psalm 23:4; Zephaniah 3:15; בּוֺרֵא רָ֑ע Isaiah 45:7 (of God), הביא רע Isaiah 31:2; מתאננים רַע Numbers 11:1 (J) murmuring respecting distress (see Di); אם טוב ואם רע Jeremiah 42:6 whether prosperity or adversity; יוֺם רע Amos 6:3 day of calamity; יְמֵי רע Psalm 49:6; Psalm 94:13; כי טוב קויתי ויבא רע Job 30:26; בְּרָע in adversity Exodus 5:19 (E) Psalm 10:6; יִמֹּל בְּרָ֑ע Proverbs 13:17; אֶרְאֶה בָרָ֑ע Genesis 44:34 (J); בכלרֿע Proverbs 5:14, מכל רע Genesis 48:16 (E) Psalm 121:7; see also Micah 1:12; Psalm 140:12; Job 5:19; Job 31:29 Proverbs 12:21; Proverbs 19:23.

He created the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Knowledge is more than intellectual knowledge here.

Isaiah 45 7 ... I believe there is a proverb which says He created evil for the day of evil.

For all we know it would have been the RESULT of disobedience which would lead to the experiential knowledge of good and evil (sin). The fruit of that tree may well have been neutral (not poisonous).

But GOD IS LIGHT AND IN HIM IS NO DARKNESS AT ALL. "In Him was life and the life was the LIGHT of men" (John 1:4). Jesus said " I am THE LIGHT of the world" and James said this: Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. (Jas 1:13,14).

Natural calamities and disasters are all a result of the curse on creation which Adam brought upon the whole of creation through his disobedience (since he was not deceived). So even creation is waiting to be released from this curse.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature [CREATION] waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature [CREATION] was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature [CREATION] itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Rom 8:19-23)

What is "the bondage of corruption" other than the Law of Entropy. Everything is subject to decay and death.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


God is omnipotent and sovereign. He is the Creator and Source of all things. All who point an accusing finger at Him will be broken. We are fortunate to have access to His grace, but don't abuse it. Don't try to put Him in a box and try to tell Him what He can and cannot do.

Proverbs 9:10
“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.”

Thanks for posting but I'm not convinced. The Bible says everything God created in the beginning was "good." The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was in the garden God created so it was good too. Proverbs 16:4 says: "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." It says He created the wicked, not evil. Even Isaiah 45:7 isn't saying God created evil when you look closely at it.

Reading this verse in context shows that once again God's 'chosen' are being reprimanded.
Deuteronomy 8:5 Thou shalt also consider in thine heart, that, as a man chasteneth his son, so the LORD thy God chasteneth thee.
Proverbs 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Hebrews 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?



Cyrus, the LORD’s Chosen One
1This is what the LORD says to Cyrus, his anointed one,
whose right hand he will empower.
Before him, mighty kings will be paralyzed with fear.
Their fortress gates will be opened,
never to shut again.
2This is what the LORD says:

“I will go before you, Cyrus,
and level the mountains.a
I will smash down gates of bronze
and cut through bars of iron.
3And I will give you treasures hidden in the darkness—
secret riches.
I will do this so you may know that I am the LORD,
the God of Israel, the one who calls you by name.

4“And why have I called you for this work?
Why did I call you by name when you did not know me?
It is for the sake of Jacob my servant,
Israel my chosen one.
5I am the LORD;
there is no other God.
I have equipped you for battle,
though you don’t even know me,
6so all the world from east to west
will know there is no other God.
I am the LORD, and there is no other.
7I create the light and make the darkness.
I send good times and bad times.
I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.

8“Open up, O heavens,
and pour out your righteousness.
Let the earth open wide
so salvation and righteousness can sprout up together.
I, the LORD, created them.

9“What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator.
Does a clay pot argue with its maker?
Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying,
‘Stop, you’re doing it wrong!’
Does the pot exclaim,
‘How clumsy can you be?’
10How terrible it would be if a newborn baby said to its father,
‘Why was I born?’
or if it said to its mother,
‘Why did you make me this way?’”

11This is what the LORD says—
the Holy One of Israel and your Creator:
“Do you question what I do for my children?
Do you give me orders about the work of my hands?
12I am the one who made the earth
and created people to live on it.
With my hands I stretched out the heavens.
All the stars are at my command.
13I will raise up Cyrus to fulfill my righteous purpose,
and I will guide his actions.
He will restore my city and free my captive people—
without seeking a reward!
I, the LORD of Heaven’s Armies, have spoken!”
Future Conversion of Gentiles
14This is what the LORD says:

“You will rule the Egyptians,
the Ethiopians,b and the Sabeans.
They will come to you with all their merchandise,
and it will all be yours.
They will follow you as prisoners in chains.
They will fall to their knees in front of you and say,
‘God is with you, and he is the only God.
There is no other.’”

15Truly, O God of Israel, our Savior,
you work in mysterious ways.
16All craftsmen who make idols will be humiliated.
They will all be disgraced together.
17But the LORD will save the people of Israel
with eternal salvation.
Throughout everlasting ages,
they will never again be humiliated and disgraced.

18For the LORD is God,
and he created the heavens and earth
and put everything in place.
He made the world to be lived in,
not to be a place of empty chaos.
“I am the LORD,” he says,
“and there is no other.
19I publicly proclaim bold promises.
I do not whisper obscurities in some dark corner.
I would not have told the people of Israelc to seek me
if I could not be found.
I, the LORD, speak only what is true
and declare only what is right.

20“Gather together and come,
you fugitives from surrounding nations.
What fools they are who carry around their wooden idols
and pray to gods that cannot save!
21Consult together, argue your case.
Get together and decide what to say.
Who made these things known so long ago?
What idol ever told you they would happen?
Was it not I, the LORD?
For there is no other God but me,
a righteous God and Savior.
There is none but me.
22Let all the world look to me for salvation!
For I am God; there is no other.
23I have sworn by my own name;
I have spoken the truth,
and I will never go back on my word:
Every knee will bend to me,
and every tongue will declare allegiance to me.d”
24The people will declare,
“The LORD is the source of all my righteousness and strength.”
And all who were angry with him
will come to him and be ashamed.
25In the LORD all the generations of Israel will be justified,
and in him they will boast.

I have a somewhat different take on this subject.
It is written that God both created and upholds all things by the power of his word.
It is also written, that death and life is in the power of the tongue, and also, it is God who creates the fruit of the lips.
Again it is written, the Kingdom of heaven suffers violence and the violent take it, the Kingdom of heaven and the powers thereof, by force.
And why did Balak go to Balaam to curse Israel, and even offered to give him money and possessions?
There's a reason why balak believed in balaam's curses, and that would have to be because he knew balaam's words would come to pass.
And who would cause those words to come to pass? God.
Again it is written that Satan moved the God's hand against Job and all that he had.
Okay, I can go on and on with scripture after scripture, showing how God basically creates what man says.
So basically, when a man blesses or curses someone or something, God is the one doing the work, creating and causing those words to manifest or come to pass, either for or against said person or thing.
He therefore is, in effect, creating both Good and evil, based on what man says.

That doesn't make any sense.

God tells us who he is. And we need to be careful if we question how he can judge our sins when they wouldn't exist were it not for his creating his law?
Sin is not imputed where there is no law.

The verse you posted here came to mind for me too. Almost sure while reading chapter 45 and seems that reading chapter 44 helps to get more perspective on this. But I have been watching movies of Wycliffe, Comenius, and others so the verse about the 'violent take it' may have crossed my mind at some point other than reading chapter 45.

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Some other commentaries reference to war. What if any connection with Zoroaster & Mani is complex. If Mani is implicated, it seems that the persecution of 3rd century Christians by 'Byzantine' / Roman empire could possibly have been more to do with Manichaeism?

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
and create evil] i.e. not moral evil, but physical evil, calamity. Cf. Amos 3:6, “shall evil befall a city and Jehovah hath not done it?”


Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
create evil—not moral evil (Jas 1:13), but in contrast to "peace" in the parallel clause, war, disaster (compare Ps 65:7; Am 3:6).

Not only Gill comments on Zoroastrianism. K&D below have a fair amount to say other than posted here. Barnes also mentions Zarathustra. These commentaries are all on one page at Bible hub so link to get you there. Isaiah 45:7 Commentaries: The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. (biblehub.com)

At least one commentary claims that Zoroastrian religion was unknown to Isaiah. Wikipedia states

Zoroastrianism[a] is an Iranian religion and one of the world's oldest organized faiths, based on the teachings of the Iranian-speaking prophet Zoroaster.[ With possible roots dating back to the 2nd millennium BCE, Zoroastrianism enters recorded history around the middle of the 6th century BCE.

Jump to 3rd century AD and Manichaeism and there is possible link to Zarathustra.
Manichaeism - Wikipedia >>>>Also scroll to
Later movements associated with Manichaeism


Mani wrote seven books, which contained the teachings of the religion. Only scattered fragments and translations of the originals remain, most having been discovered in Egypt and Turkistan during the 20th century."[103]
The original six Syriac writings are not preserved, although their Syriac names have been. There are also fragments and quotations from them. A long quotation, preserved by the eighth-century Nestorian Christian author Theodore Bar Konai,[41] shows that in the original Syriac Aramaic writings of Mani there was no influence of Iranian or Zoroastrian terms. The terms for the Manichaean deities in the original Syriac writings are in Aramaic. The adaptation of Manichaeism to the Zoroastrian religion appears to have begun in Mani's lifetime however, with his writing of the Middle Persian Shabuhragan, his book dedicated to the Sasanian emperor, Shapur I

In 291, persecution arose in the Persian empire with the murder of the apostle Sisin by Bahram II, and the slaughter of many Manichaeans. In 296, the Roman emperor Diocletian decreed all the Manichaean leaders to be burnt alive along with the Manichaean scriptures and many Manichaeans in Europe and North Africa were killed. It was not until 372 with Valentinian I and Valens that Manichaeism was legislated against again.[73]
Theodosius I issued a decree of death for all Manichaean monks in 382 AD.[74] The religion was vigorously attacked and persecuted by both the Christian Church and the Roman state, and the religion almost disappeared from western Europe in the fifth century and from the eastern portion of the empire in the sixth century



Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament
A second and third object are introduced by a second and third למען. "For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I called thee hither by name, surnamed thee when thou knewest me not. I Jehovah, and there is none else, beside me no God: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

But as the prophecy concerning Cyrus closes with this self-assertion of Jehovah, it is unquestionably a natural supposition that there is also a contrast implied to the dualistic system of Zarathustra, which divided the one nature of the Deity into two opposing powers (see Windischmann, Zoroastrische Studien, p. 135). The declaration is so bold, that Marcion appealed to this passage as a proof that the God of the Old Testament was a different being from the God of the New, and not the God of goodness only. The Valentinians and other gnostics also regarded the words "There is no God beside me" in Isaiah, as deceptive words of the Demiurugs

I agree it is a difficult one. I think this

The very act of God in creating good creates it's counterpart or opposite, if He creates light inevitably what is not light is darkness. In other words it is impossible to create good without creating evil. In the future ages evil will be completely eliminated.

I also see that a great artist must have that upon which to portray his art, a canvas ... a void.

The words you share are very profound. Years ago and years apart from one another, I cursed three people stating specific things, and each horrific incident occurred. Maybe my words had something to do with it and maybe not, but I’ve asked God for forgiveness and now I no longer curse anyone but rather only bless people.

I never said it was difficult. lol To me it seems pretty clear.