Sin in Saving
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Romans 6 should answer this.
Romans 6
English Standard Version
Dead to Sin, Alive to God
6 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self[a] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free[b] from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
Slaves to Righteousness
15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,[c] you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Footnotes
Romans 6
English Standard Version
Dead to Sin, Alive to God
6 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self[a] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free[b] from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
Slaves to Righteousness
15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,[c] you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Footnotes
- Romans 6:6 Greek man
- Romans 6:7 Greek has been justified
- Romans 6:16 For the contextual rendering of the Greek word doulos, see Preface; twice in this verse; also verses 17, 19 (twice), 20
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Romans 8:12,13
12Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
Jude 1
4For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
12Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
Jude 1
4For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
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I suggest studying and meditating on Romans 7:14 to 8:14. There are two "I"'s in 7:14 to 7:25.
The truly saved person still has their unsaved flesh. The flesh has sinful desires and is not to be walked after, but can be.
Saved David desired Bathsheba and remained saved. He also received a very undesirable, life-long spanking.
The truly saved person still has their unsaved flesh. The flesh has sinful desires and is not to be walked after, but can be.
Saved David desired Bathsheba and remained saved. He also received a very undesirable, life-long spanking.
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1 Timothy 4:12
Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
God's wisdom in Proverbs may appeal to him.
Proverbs 4
International Standard Version
Diligently Pursue Wisdom
4 Listen, children,[a] to your father’s instruction,
and pay attention in order to gain understanding.
2 I give you sound teaching,
so do not abandon my instruction.[b]
3 When I was a son to my father,
not yet strong[c] and an only son to my mother,
4 he taught me and told me,
“Let your heart fully embrace what I have to say;[d]
keep my commandments and live!
5 Get wisdom! Get understanding!
Do not forget or turn aside from the words of my mouth!
6 Do not abandon her, and she will protect you.
Love her, and she will watch over you.
7 Wisdom is of utmost importance, therefore get wisdom,
and with all your effort work to acquire understanding.
8 Prize her and she will exalt you.
Indeed, if you embrace her, she will honor you.
9 She will place on your head a graceful garland;
she will present to you a crown of beauty.”
10 Listen, my son: accept my words,
and you’ll live a long, long time.[e]
11 I have directed you in the way of wisdom,
and I have led you along straight[f] paths.
12 When you walk, your step will not be hindered,
and when you run, you will not stumble.
13 Hold on to instruction, do not let it go!
Guard wisdom,[g] because she is your life!
Avoiding the Ways of the Wicked
14 Do not enter the path of the wicked,
or go along the way of evil men.
15 Avoid it! Don’t travel on it!
Turn away from it, and pass on by.
16 For they cannot sleep unless they are doing evil,
and they are robbed of their sleep unless they cause someone to stumble.
17 For they eat the bread of wickedness,
and they drink the wine of violence.
18 The path of the righteous is like the light of dawn
that grows brighter until the full light of day.
19 But the way of the wicked is like deep darkness,
and they do not know what they are stumbling over.
Remembering the Counsel of a Wise Father
20 My son, pay attention to my words,
and listen closely[h] to what I say.
21 Do not let them out of your sight;
keep them within your heart.
22 For they are life to those who find them,
and healing to their whole body.[i]
23 Above everything else[j] guard your heart,
because from it flow the springs of life.
24 Never talk deceptively
and don’t keep company with people whose speech is corrupt.[k]
25 Let your eyes look directly ahead;
fix your gaze straight in front of you.
26 Carefully measure[l] the paths for your feet,
and all your ways will be established.
27 Do not turn to the right or to the left;
turn your foot away from evil.
Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
God's wisdom in Proverbs may appeal to him.
Proverbs 4
International Standard Version
Diligently Pursue Wisdom
4 Listen, children,[a] to your father’s instruction,
and pay attention in order to gain understanding.
2 I give you sound teaching,
so do not abandon my instruction.[b]
3 When I was a son to my father,
not yet strong[c] and an only son to my mother,
4 he taught me and told me,
“Let your heart fully embrace what I have to say;[d]
keep my commandments and live!
5 Get wisdom! Get understanding!
Do not forget or turn aside from the words of my mouth!
6 Do not abandon her, and she will protect you.
Love her, and she will watch over you.
7 Wisdom is of utmost importance, therefore get wisdom,
and with all your effort work to acquire understanding.
8 Prize her and she will exalt you.
Indeed, if you embrace her, she will honor you.
9 She will place on your head a graceful garland;
she will present to you a crown of beauty.”
10 Listen, my son: accept my words,
and you’ll live a long, long time.[e]
11 I have directed you in the way of wisdom,
and I have led you along straight[f] paths.
12 When you walk, your step will not be hindered,
and when you run, you will not stumble.
13 Hold on to instruction, do not let it go!
Guard wisdom,[g] because she is your life!
Avoiding the Ways of the Wicked
14 Do not enter the path of the wicked,
or go along the way of evil men.
15 Avoid it! Don’t travel on it!
Turn away from it, and pass on by.
16 For they cannot sleep unless they are doing evil,
and they are robbed of their sleep unless they cause someone to stumble.
17 For they eat the bread of wickedness,
and they drink the wine of violence.
18 The path of the righteous is like the light of dawn
that grows brighter until the full light of day.
19 But the way of the wicked is like deep darkness,
and they do not know what they are stumbling over.
Remembering the Counsel of a Wise Father
20 My son, pay attention to my words,
and listen closely[h] to what I say.
21 Do not let them out of your sight;
keep them within your heart.
22 For they are life to those who find them,
and healing to their whole body.[i]
23 Above everything else[j] guard your heart,
because from it flow the springs of life.
24 Never talk deceptively
and don’t keep company with people whose speech is corrupt.[k]
25 Let your eyes look directly ahead;
fix your gaze straight in front of you.
26 Carefully measure[l] the paths for your feet,
and all your ways will be established.
27 Do not turn to the right or to the left;
turn your foot away from evil.
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One of the signs that a person is born again is that he no longer wants to sin. 1 Corinthians 6:9 says that those who sin continually will not inherit the kingdom of God. 1 John 5:18 We know that anyone born of God does not keep on sinning; the One who was born of God protects him, and the evil one cannot touch him.
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I was going to say, isn't most of the Bible basically about avoiding sin? Seems like that would have been hard to miss. He's probably looking for a license to sin or someone has deceived him I guess. Not trying to pick on him in particular, but OP brought him up. This misunderstanding about freedom to sin happens to a lot of young Christians, at first, but sometimes they won't let it go.
A somewhat close friend of mine thinks lesser of me now because I argued that Christians are required to live righteously, be holy, otherwise avoid sin. We're still on talking terms, but it got a little heated on his end, and now he doesn't chat me up like he did before. Imagine being thought lesser of by a Christian for advocating for holy and righteous living. That's where we are at nowadays.
A somewhat close friend of mine thinks lesser of me now because I argued that Christians are required to live righteously, be holy, otherwise avoid sin. We're still on talking terms, but it got a little heated on his end, and now he doesn't chat me up like he did before. Imagine being thought lesser of by a Christian for advocating for holy and righteous living. That's where we are at nowadays.
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my view
This is the Doctrine of Cheap Grace -------Many Clergy do not want to teach on the New Covenant of Grace for that very reason ----as many take it and run with it ---My sins are forgiven --therefore I can sin all I want to now -----
The New Covenant of Grace has to be explained to the Flock on How Grace Works in helping the person stay out of sin ------Grace is a person ---Jesus is Grace in the New Covenant -----and in our weakness to give into sinful action we can call on Grace to give us the strength and ability to stay y clear of sin ----
My Grace is sufficient says God ------ Grace and truth came by Jesus
Jesus is our provider and protector to resist Sin ------this is not taught in the main stream Churches---it is easier to teach do good works and that is enough to get you into heaven than to teach on the Great Power of Grace -----
This is the Doctrine of Cheap Grace -------Many Clergy do not want to teach on the New Covenant of Grace for that very reason ----as many take it and run with it ---My sins are forgiven --therefore I can sin all I want to now -----
The New Covenant of Grace has to be explained to the Flock on How Grace Works in helping the person stay out of sin ------Grace is a person ---Jesus is Grace in the New Covenant -----and in our weakness to give into sinful action we can call on Grace to give us the strength and ability to stay y clear of sin ----
My Grace is sufficient says God ------ Grace and truth came by Jesus
Jesus is our provider and protector to resist Sin ------this is not taught in the main stream Churches---it is easier to teach do good works and that is enough to get you into heaven than to teach on the Great Power of Grace -----
This is the toxic message of Calvinism.
But your response is, unfortunately, a standard Calvinistic response when pressed on the matter.
We need to get a grasp on the fact that salvation is conditioned upon faithfully abiding in the vine. The man who returns to the mire shall be cast off and burned. This is not salvation by works. This is salvation by continuance in the Faith.
Hebrews 6:8
“But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.”
(And if you are thinking that this just talking about a man's works, just check the context.)
But your response is, unfortunately, a standard Calvinistic response when pressed on the matter.
We need to get a grasp on the fact that salvation is conditioned upon faithfully abiding in the vine. The man who returns to the mire shall be cast off and burned. This is not salvation by works. This is salvation by continuance in the Faith.
Hebrews 6:8
“But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.”
(And if you are thinking that this just talking about a man's works, just check the context.)
Hello Stephen, for now, here are a few Scriptures for you to consider (there are MANY more).
Praying for you and for your son!
God bless you!!
~Deuteronomy
p.s. - while it's true that the Lord Jesus came here to save us from the penalty of sin and the wrath of God in the age to come, He also came to save us from the power of sin on this side of the grave/in the here and now. "Cheap grace" (which was mentioned a few posts back) is the source of an eternal problem for many, and it's something that we evangelicals have (sadly) had a hand in both creating and developing in some of the minds that have come to embrace it, as theologian/pastor A. W. Pink points out in the following quote.
1 Corinthians 6
18 Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.
19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.
Ephesians 4
22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to ~put off your old self~, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;
23 ~to be made new~ in the attitude of your minds;
24 and to ~put on the new self~, ~created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness~.
1 Thessalonians 4
3 This is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;
4 that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,
5 not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God.
James 4
4 Do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
1 John 3
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as He is righteous.
8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.
10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
Praying for you and for your son!
God bless you!!
~Deuteronomy
p.s. - while it's true that the Lord Jesus came here to save us from the penalty of sin and the wrath of God in the age to come, He also came to save us from the power of sin on this side of the grave/in the here and now. "Cheap grace" (which was mentioned a few posts back) is the source of an eternal problem for many, and it's something that we evangelicals have (sadly) had a hand in both creating and developing in some of the minds that have come to embrace it, as theologian/pastor A. W. Pink points out in the following quote.
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