1 Thess 4:15-17 proves the Rapture is post-Resurrection and so Post-Tribulation.

XavierJesusLovesIndia · Dec 21, 2022

So let's have a thread to discuss the particular passage. It tells us with absolute clarity that the Rapture CANNOT COME unless the DEAD IN CHRIST RISE FIRST. What does that mean? It means the Rapture is Post-Resurrection. But the Resurrection of the Saints is Post-Tribulation. Therefore, the Rapture is Post-Tribulation. I am astonished many Pre-Trib Rapture believers overlook the plain sense of this passage?

Thoughts? Here's the Passage itself in its context so we can all read it.

1 Thess 4: The Rapture will not come unless the dead in Christ rise first:

"15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

1) verse 15 says we who are alive will not precede (in being Raptured) those who have fallen asleep. This means the Rapture cannot come until the Resurrection (of the Saints) comes first.
2) This is explicitly and word-for-word confirmed in the latter part of verse 16, and the former of verse 17. Please see the underlined above. Unless the dead in Christ rise first, no Rapture.

Tribulation >> Resurrection >> Rapture. That is the sequence outlined in these words.

Walter · Dec 21, 2022

XavierJesusLovesIndia said:

So let's have a thread to discuss the particular passage. It tells us with absolute clarity that the Rapture CANNOT COME unless the DEAD IN CHRIST RISE FIRST. What does that mean? It means the Rapture is Post-Resurrection. But the Resurrection of the Saints is Post-Tribulation. Therefore, the Rapture is Post-Tribulation. I am astonished many Pre-Trib Rapture believers overlook the plain sense of this passage?

Thoughts? Here's the Passage itself in its context so we can all read it.

1 Thess 4: The Rapture will not come unless the dead in Christ rise first:

"15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

1) verse 15 says we who are alive will not precede (in being Raptured) those who have fallen asleep. This means the Rapture cannot come until the Resurrection (of the Saints) comes first.
2) This is explicitly and word-for-word confirmed in the latter part of verse 16, and the former of verse 17. Please see the underlined above. Unless the dead in Christ rise first, no Rapture.

Tribulation >> Resurrection >> Rapture. That is the sequence outlined in these words.

There is only only one Tribulation and that is the one that Jesus spoke about in Matthew 24:21.

Walter

Walter · Dec 21, 2022

Walter said:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Read full chapter

oyster67 · Dec 21, 2022

XavierJesusLovesIndia said:

First off, I want to reassure you that I have read your post. I will now tell you how I understand 1 Thess 4:15-17.

1 Thess 4:
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Verse 16 is referring to the dead bodies of all the Church Saint who have died in Christ up to that point. This is not the resurrection of the Tribulation Saints (which comes later.) These are two separate and distinct groups. The Tribulation Saints mostly consist of Orthodox Jews who have come to Christ after being witnessed to by the Two Witnesses spoken of in Revelation. The Tribulation Saints will also include gentile believers who missed the Rapture but came to Christ afterward and were beheaded for not taking the Mark of the Beast.

I have included verse 14 to show how God will bring the souls of the Church-age Saints with Him at the Rapture to reunite them with the bodies mentioned in verse 16. God shall then change these bodies into glorified bodies as we return upwards back to Heaven with Jesus.

Those Christians who are still alive at this time of the Rapture will follow along and also receive glorified bodies on their way up to Heaven.

Please note that we go up, not down. We will spend the next 7 years in Heaven with Jesus. We will return as His Bride and the Tribulation Saints will then be Resurrected. This is the Second Coming and this will usher in the 1000-year Reign (Millennium).

Walter · Dec 21, 2022

Walter said:

Hello XavierJesusLovesIndia, The OP is correct

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Read full chapter

jamesp · Dec 27, 2022

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10
King James Version
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

6 seems to refer to those that trouble you(saints) as if in trib tense(as if during trib)
7 before comma - seems also to refer to you(saints)that are troubled as in trib tense(as if during trib)
7 after comma - when(then ?) Jesus revealed from heaven w/angels( begin 2nd coming)
8 and takes flaming-fire-vengeance
9 punishment
10 glory

1 Thess 1:14-18 and 2 Thess 1:6-10 both present questions re pre-trib rap. Whatever, just so we are raptured !

Thank you Lord for dying for our sins.

GRACE_ambassador · Dec 27, 2022

op: " 1Thess 4:15-17 prove the rapture is post-resurrection and so
post-tribulation?"
No...

XavierJesusLovesIndia said:

Many Scriptures, 'Rightly Divided,' Teach Otherwise:

Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I
+
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II

studentoftheword · Dec 27, 2022

XavierJesusLovesIndia said:

But the Resurrection of the Saints is Post-Tribulation. Therefore, the Rapture is Post-Tribulation. I am astonished many Pre-Trib Rapture believers overlook the plain sense of this passage?[/QUOTE]

I say ----I am astonished that Post Trib Rapture believers have no understanding of what happens after you die --

I think understanding of what happens with the Body ---Soul and Spirit when one dies is needed here and what is being said in verse 14 will make perfect sense -------and it does point to a Pre-Trib Rapture ------

So what does the scripture say about where the body goes when we die ------what does it say about what happens to the Spirit and Soul when we die ------

Scripture says -------

Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 ERV
Death
6 Remember your Creator while you are young,
before the silver rope snaps and the golden bowl is crushed
like a jar broken at the well,
like a stone cover on a well that breaks and falls in.
7 Your body came from the earth.
And when you die, it will return to the earth.
But your spirit came from God,
and when you die, it will return to him.

I say -------so we see the Body stays in the Ground ------your Spirit and Soul ---which many believe are the same but the scripture clearly says that the 2 are separate leave the body and return to God ------

read here
https://www.christianity.com/wiki/salvation/difference-between-a-soul-and-a-spirit.html

The spirit and soul are much more difficult because they seem similar but are actually very different. They have different functions in our lives as Christians, as it is written in Hebrews 4:12,

Hebrews 4:12
NIV

12 For the word of God is alive and active.Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

I say
We Humans are a tri Part being -----we are made in God's image who has 3 Person's ----

We are A Spirit being --We possess a Soul and the Spirit and Soul are housed in a Physical body ------

I say ---So the verse 14 is speaking of the Pre--Trib Rapture which Jesus is Rapturing the BODIES of the Saints who have died before the start of the Tribulation Period which were returned to the Ground when they died ---our bodies are made from the dust of the Ground and the Body returns to the dust of the Ground and stays behind -------The Spirit and Soul leave the Body at death ----the Body remains in the grave till Jesus Raptures the Bodies and make them Spiritual Bodies ------that is what is being Raptured first then the living will be caught up and their bodies will be changed in the twinkling of an eye -----as per Scripture -----

So your Theory of it could not possibly be a Pre -Trib Rapture has just been blown out of the water -------
by Scripture itself ======

jamesp · Dec 28, 2022

"The Spirit and Soul leave the Body at death ----the Body remains in the grave till Jesus Raptures the Bodies and make them Spiritual Bodies ------that is what is being Raptured first then the living will be caught up and their bodies will be changed in the twinkling of an eye -----as per Scripture -----"

Well said studentoftheword.
But when do the living saints get raptured ?

GRACE_ambassador · Dec 28, 2022

jamesp said:

Depends 'which group' you are referring to:

1) The kingdom earthly saints, or:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

2) The Body Of Christ Heavenly saints

More here:

Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I
+
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 28, 2022

jamesp said:

The text states, "together with them shall be caught up"...

This means that both components will be "caught up" AT THE SAME TIME ("the dead in Christ shall rise first"--meaning, bodily resurrected "to stand again" [on the earth]... THEN [epeita] the living the remaining [those who've NOT experienced physical death prior to this point] TOGETHER WITH THEM shall be caught up...," that is, at the SAME TIME that they will also be caught up [i.e. AS ONE... the ONE BODY])

["caught up" = "raptured"]

studentoftheword · Dec 28, 2022

jamesp said:

The living Saints get Raptured after the bodies of the dead Saints are Raptured ------read verses 16 and 17 below

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

Amplified Bible

16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the [a]archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord!

18 Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words [concerning our reunion with believers who have died].

Blade · Dec 28, 2022

Thanks for talking about Christ coming to get His Church. What you posted does not prove anything. If it did there would be no threads on Caught up (Rapture). He is the resurrection and the life. Even when He rose from the grave many dead rose from the graves. So I am very encouraged for He is coming to get us period. Always lookup and be ready.

jamesp · Dec 28, 2022

GRACE_ambassador
TheDivineWatermark
studentoftheword

Thank you for your responses. Frustrated here. I hear your points clearly. On many occasions I have listened to videos and read books by great scholars analyzing both pre-trib and post-trib stands and am equally persuaded by both interpretations of this issue.

It appears a great amount of prophecy is being fulfilled recently. Some fulfillment obvious, some rather nebulous, the timing on this one is in the nebulous category at this point in my mind and perhaps a failure on my behalf.

The Bible is clear that we will be raptured one way or another praise the Lord. I should think that maintaining a respectful awareness and knowledge of both pre/post scenarios should be a responsible approach in God's eyes.

There are many more prophecies to unfold. Just watch the way the people on this earth are behaving daily and the unique natural events that are occuring in real time. These prophecies will become more apparent as their time approaches. The birth pains of the tribulation warrant us to maintain awareness and be prepared for potential difficult times alone. I can only trust in Jesus Christ my Saviour that he will protect me should that be his will. It is clear that there will be tribulation saints that lost their lives for our Belief. Perhaps we will have to face this awful situation as the disciples did. There are 7 spirits for us Believers to maintain respect in, one is the fear of the Lord. Apparently we are not here in this world to be at total peace.

Komentaja · Dec 28, 2022

XavierJesusLovesIndia said:

So let's have a thread to discuss the particular passage. It tells us with absolute clarity that the Rapture CANNOT COME unless the DEAD IN CHRIST RISE FIRST. What does that mean? It means the Rapture is Post-Resurrection. But the Resurrection of the Saints is Post-Tribulation. Therefore, the Rapture is Post-Tribulation. I am astonished many Pre-Trib Rapture believers overlook the plain sense of this passage?

Thoughts? Here's the Passage itself in its context so we can all read it.

1 Thess 4: The Rapture will not come unless the dead in Christ rise first:

"15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

1) verse 15 says we who are alive will not precede (in being Raptured) those who have fallen asleep. This means the Rapture cannot come until the Resurrection (of the Saints) comes first.
2) This is explicitly and word-for-word confirmed in the latter part of verse 16, and the former of verse 17. Please see the underlined above. Unless the dead in Christ rise first, no Rapture.

Tribulation >> Resurrection >> Rapture. That is the sequence outlined in these words.

You know what they say about itching ears right? That is why this clear bible teaching is ignored. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 ends the pre-trib debate as well. As does Revelation 16:15, the fact that Jesus has not yet returned and we are already in the "vials" of revelation

studentoftheword · Dec 28, 2022

Blade said:

LOL ---

jamesp · Dec 28, 2022

Komentaja said:

Komentaja - 2 Thess 1:7-9 sure does seem to suggest that the saints would we would be troubled up until the Lord Jesus reveals himself at 2nd coming:

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10
King James Version
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

My very inexperienced interpretation:

6 seems to refer to those that trouble you(saints) as if in trib tense(as if during trib)
7 before comma - seems also to refer to you(saints)that are troubled as in trib tense(as if during trib)
7 after comma - when(then ?) Jesus revealed from heaven w/angels( begin 2nd coming)
8 and takes flaming-fire-vengeance
9 punishment
10 glory

1 Thess 1:14-18 and 2 Thess 1:6-10 both present questions re pre-trib rap. Whatever, just so we are raptured !

Isaac20 · Dec 29, 2022

GRACE_ambassador · Dec 29, 2022

Isaac20 said:

Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome To Chat.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II).

Grace, Peace, And JOY!...

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1 Thess 4:15-17 proves the Rapture is post-Resurrection and so Post-Tribulation.

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