Romans 2:4 The goodne$$ of God leads to repentance?

Interesting.

I too thought once "prosperity gospel" was an error, but closer Bible study shows it is not. One of many passages: "The blessing of the LORD makes one rich, And He adds no sorrow with it." (Prov 10:22)

If no believer has sufficient funds, then how will Kingdom work go on? God blesses different people differently. If one's calling is to be a Missionary, if one has forsaken land and home and family etc for it, then God will pour an abundance of spiritual blessings upon you, as He did on Peter, Paul and John, who worked miracles in Christ's Name. On the other hand, if you are a family man etc, and you need to provide for your own family, and also give 10% or more to Churches and Charities, then of course you have to have money, right? And then God will bless you, even in finances or wealth, as He did for Abraham, Job and Solomon. My opinion is financially prosperous Christians should aim to give higher - like 20% - and some of it directly to charity, and then "prosperity Gospel" might not have such a bad name. "Selfishness Gospel/Gospel of Greed" is definitely false, no question about that. But that God gives abundance and prosperity, or material blessings, also to many who serve Him is not. One reason He does this imo is so that the Kingdom of God may sufficient funds to grow.

2 Corinthians 9:The Cheerful Giver

"6But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver. 8And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work. 9As it is written:

“He has dispersed abroad,
He has given to the poor;
His righteousness endures forever.”
10Now may He who supplies seed to the sower, and bread for food, supply and multiply the seed you have sown and increase the fruits of your righteousness, 11while you are enriched in everything for all liberality, which causes thanksgiving through us to God. 12For the administration of this service not only supplies the needs of the saints, but also is abounding through many thanksgivings to God, 13while, through the proof of this ministry, they glorify God for the obedience of your confession to the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal sharing with them and all men, 14and by their prayer for you, who long for you because of the exceeding grace of God in you. 15Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!

Seems the world has prospered greatly during the last 100 years primarily due to reliance on fossil fuels. The link I post here indicates the possible reality of fusion providing a source of energy which, if realized may displace a great amount of fossil fuel sourced energy and increase the potential wealth of the world. History shows that harnessing energy sources and wealth growth go hand in hand. How this relates to Creflo Dollar and the critic on the video and the Bible is beyond me.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...sedgntp&cvid=87436120dde345f2ae7b1ede4d65a06c

Well, tragically the situation worldwide is still very bad.

1) The top 1% owns 50% of the wealth, roughly.
2) The bottom 50% survives on around 1% of the wealth.

This is very bad and this is why Christ emphasizes so much not to store our treasures on Earth, but to give them away to the Poor abundantly, and thus store up Eternal Treasures in Heaven, where moth cannot rust and thief cannot steal.

Mat 6: Lay Up Treasures in Heaven

19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

I don't know much about Creflo; I've only heard bad stuff. I don't have a problem with the word "profit", because it doesn't always mean money.
God is a rewarder of those who dilligently seek him- you have to believe in his goodness and benevolence to even approach him: and indeed, it is profitable for everyone to seek him.
I'm not a fan of "materialistic" prosperity gospels, though. That's just as worthless as teaching that God isn't good.

When Creflo Dollar says "profit" I know exactly what he means. He once said he wished he could line up non-tithers and "shoot them dead." He'd take them outside and bury them in a big hole then come back inside and have church and have the anointing.

The issue becomes this

“No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness;

and all these things shall be added unto you.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:24, 31-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The thing about seeking the gospel first it’s going to change our minds about alot of things that the world sees as normal

It isn’t to love God and also money they don’t fit into the same kingdom we’re supposed to be looking up not at “earthly prosperity “ but at eternal life where whatever moneys we had on earth don’t have any place whatsoever

“If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above,

not on things on the earth.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:1-2‬ ‭

“Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:19-21‬ ‭

“But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.

But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭6:6-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Hi PH. Agreed. Love of Money, or Greed, is always bad, and the root of all evil, as 1 Tim 6 that you quoted says. But the Bible also says we are to store up Treasures in Heaven, and 1 Tim 6 continues to explain how the rich can do that: "17Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy. 18Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, 19storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life."

In this context, I highly appreciate Pastor Rick Warren. He's a Millionaire, so fairly rich, prosperous and successful; but he also "reverse tithes", or gives 90% to the Poor. I think Christians should do that, gradually increase the tithe above 10%, to like 20%, 30% etc, in order to keep our lives free from the love of money, as the Bible indeed commands: "Kay and I became reverse tithers. When we got married 30 years ago, we began tithing 10%. Each year we would raise our tithe 1% to stretch our faith: 11% the first year, 12% the second year, 13% the third year. Every time I give, it breaks the grip of materialism in my life. Every time I give, it makes me more like Jesus. Every time I give, my heart grows bigger. And so now, we give away 90% and we live on 10%. That was actually the easy part, what to do with the money--just give it away, because I'm storing up treasures in heaven." https://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/christianity/2005/10/rick-warrens-second-reformation.aspx

Being rich is clearly not a sin, as many Bible Heroes were rich, including Abraham and Job, and it says God gave them these blessings. Being greedy surely is a sin, and those who are greedy will give an account to God for their Greed, like the Rich Man in Luk 16. But to be rich and to be generous is no sin, and those who are such imo, can both store up Treasures in Heaven, and help many on Earth. Your thoughts, Pilgrimshope?

Mal 3:10:

"10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it." - This is a Promise of Abundance/Prosperity for obeying the Command to tithe or give 10% faithfully.

3 Jn 1:2 "Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth."

This verse says God above all wants us to prosper in every way, including health and financial blessings, provided our souls prospers also. The verse says God wants this above all things, which means God is happy to give material blessings also imo. And that verse from the Gospel you quoted agrees with it, that if we seek the Kingdom first, we will have all else added as well.

God Bless.

Bible says God blessed Job's life with material blessings also, as below. God Bless.

Job 42:

"10 After Job had prayed for his friends, the Lord restored his fortunes and gave him twice as much as he had before. 11 All his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the Lord had brought on him, and each one gave him a piece of silver and a gold ring.

12 The Lord blessed the latter part of Job’s life more than the former part. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys. 13 And he also had seven sons and three daughters. 14 The first daughter he named Jemimah, the second Keziah and the third Keren-Happuch. 15 Nowhere in all the land were there found women as beautiful as Job’s daughters, and their father granted them an inheritance along with their brothers.

16 After this, Job lived a hundred and forty years; he saw his children and their children to the fourth generation. 17 And so Job died, an old man and full of years."

Yeah brother it’s where the heart is it’s always going to follow where our treasure is

a when your quoting this it’s according to the Old Testament

“Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it." - This is a Promise of Abundance/Prosperity for obeying the Command to tithe or give 10% faithfully.”

tithing is an Old Testament ordinance given to the children of Israel according to and under the law of Moses.


The New Testament is exactly what you posted here

17Command those who are rich in this present age ( it’s not a promise being fulfilled it’s circumstance beforehand ) not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy.

18Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, 19storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life."

He’s simply teaching the gospel there’s this rich man ( already rich not got rich because of Jesus ) but watch what his heart does in response to Jesus

“And, behold, there was a man named Zacchæus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich. And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchæus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.

And Zacchæus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭19:2, 5, 8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

His money didn’t matter much to him he freely and willingly gave it away because he’s met Jesus offering something worth far more

and then There’s this rich guy

“Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions. And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭10:21-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

money is a very powerful idol it can easily corrupt the heart is the idea even if we start out with good intentions the desire to get rich, has a way of corrupting the heart that’s what Jesus was originally saying and what Paul explains so well

I’d love to see rich Christina begin taking care of the poor around them , but mostly people don’t do that by a vast majority because the world is always seeking money people will bend morals to get it , cause harm to keep it , and sell thier eternal Inheritance for the power , popularity , security ot purports to offer

I’m not saying someone having money is bad Jesus never ever promised financial prosperity for repenting and obeying the gospel he said a lot about money but it isnt what the ot says about money that’s from Moses law

In the end some believers are well off financially which means they are now commanded to give generously according to what they do have not as a better blessing financially but because they love their poor brother in need and are focused on tbier true inheritance in the kingdom

aid you look at what oils warning about it is the desire to have alot that is the issue not having or not having but the desire to get to have to gain rather than finding contentment in what’s we do have beginning with peace with God through Jesus Christ

The old testement and New Testament are about different worlds somone deals with earthly issues another with heavenly ones

money is a subtle and persuasive creature appealing to the flesh constantly it can easily become “a god” of ot leads the heart

that’s all I’m saying if our heart is focused on money if we think about it alot if we desire to be rich there’s a heart issue inside us because Jesus never preached financial prosperity as a blessing of the gospel he simply acknowledges that some have alot and others are poor so the ones with much are required to be generous with the ones who have too little

air is really an extra weight and vehicle by which temptations flow

Just passing through. Brother, mostly agree with you, although in the NT, imo, Christians should give at least 10% or more than the Jews gave, because God in the NT has done so much for us, by giving His own Precious Blood for us. Recently, there was research done about tithing, and if more Christians were to give at least 10%, and more of it went directly to charity, the impact that it could have both on poverty alleviation and on World Missions is quite amazing. Source below.

"Passing the Plate shows that few American Christians donate generously to religious and charitable causes -- a parsimony that seriously undermines the work of churches and ministries. Far from the 10 percent of one's income that tithing requires, American Christians' financial giving typically amounts, by some measures, to less than one percent of annual earnings. And a startling one out of five self-identified Christians gives nothing at all.

This eye-opening book explores the reasons behind such ungenerous giving, the potential world-changing benefits of greater financial giving, and what can be done to improve matters. If American Christians gave more generously, say the authors, any number of worthy projects -- from the prevention and treatment of HIV/AIDS to the promotion of inter-religious understanding to the upgrading of world missions -- could be funded at astounding levels. Analyzing a wide range of social surveys and government and denominational statistical datasets and drawing on in-depth interviews with Christian pastors and church members in seven different states, the book identifies a crucial set of factors that appear to depress religious financial support -- among them the powerful allure of a mass-consumerist culture and its impact on Americans' priorities, parishioners' suspicions of waste and abuse by nonprofit administrators, clergy's hesitations to boldly ask for money, and the lack of structure and routine in the way most American Christians give away money. In their conclusion, the authors suggest practical steps that clergy and lay leaders might take to counteract these tendencies and better educate their congregations about the transformative effects of generous giving."

https://www.amazon.com/Passing-Plate-American-Christians-Money/dp/0195337115

And as for whether we should give in the New Covenant or not, yes, some will say we should give 10% today, some will say no, we just need to give cheerfully. But regardless of that, the Promise would still apply. And the Promise is very clear, if you faithfully tithe, you will receive blessings of abundance of God. As I mentioned, not everyone will face martyrdom as the Apostles did. If that's your calling/vocation from the Lord, then He will pour out abundant spiritual blessings on your life, like the Power to work Miracles in His Name, like the Apostles did. But for most of the rest, who are not called to that, imo He will give also material blessings, provided we proportionately increase tithing, to 20%, 30% etc as Pastor Rick Warren did. The above study says typical percentage is 1%. And 1/5th give 0 or nothing. Sad. Imo, if we refuse to bless others, with the abundance with which God has blessed us with, then the blessings will dry up for us also.

God Bless.

Your points are well-made and well supported, but the gospel message isn't about social change but individual transformation. While we should always give physical provision and care, this should always be a byproduct of ministry and not its genesis. A social gospel emphasizes temporal needs to the detriment of eternal needs.
That said, Jews typically gave far more than 10 % of their increase. The number would be closer to 25%. We could all stand to be more charitable.

2Thess 2:1Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the [a]coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a [c]message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the [d]apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself above [e]every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

There has to be those leading non-growing baby christians away from the truth for this to happen, so here they are.
However, I believe the apostasy started before these false preachers were born.

“you, although in the NT, imo, Christians should give”

yes Christian’s should give according to whatever they have rich people should give a lot poor people should share whatever they do have in proportion to what they have to give

brother I’ve been poor very very poor and then I had worked hard and had plenty , too much really and then I found myself wanting more than I had ever wanted when I was poor

now I’m just content. I have just what I need no more and no less .

I don’t have many treasures in earth even my body is breaking down and withering as bodies do with time there’s nothing on earth I get to take into the kingdom if I’m welcomed by the king

I would just caution anyone that if your doctrine or pastor is focused at all on money and financial prosperity it’s gone astray

inised to notice how pastors would really focus on “ financial prosperity “ and started hearing the messages “ of you see your financial seed into my ministry you’ll reap a financial harvest “

It was around that time I started realizing what the prosperity gospel actually is and what it is not

People do strange things.

Many examples of physical blessings in the Old Testament foreshadow, symbolize, and represent spiritual blessings under the New Way that was ushered in by Jesus. Jesus taught us that true riches are those that are spiritual and not material.

Matthew 6
19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Our glorification and prosperity is yet future. Now is the time to humbly serve and faithfully endure... often endure hardship like the prophets and apostles that have gone before us.

Hebrews 11:
37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38(Of whom the world was not worthy. they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Health, wealth, and prosperity is not fertile soil for spiritual growth.

Hi Cameron. Agreed, brother, but in Deut 14, we see God cares that a nation that loves Him should have no poor or at least very few. Citing that in a minute. Historically, that was a motive/reason that caused/helped many pagans to convert to Christianity. The Emperor called Julian the Apostate - who tried to return to paganism - lamented "It is a shame to us that the Galileans" - Christians - "take care not only of their Poor but of our own". Because of this, many turned from paganism to Jesus Christ.

Here is Deut 14:

The Year for Canceling Debts

1At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts. 2This is how it is to be done: Every creditor shall cancel any loan they have made to a fellow Israelite. They shall not require payment from anyone among their own people, because the Lord’s time for canceling debts has been proclaimed. 3You may require payment from a foreigner, but you must cancel any debt your fellow Israelite owes you. 4However, there need be no poor people among you, for in the land the Lord your God is giving you to possess as your inheritance, he will richly bless you, 5if only you fully obey the Lord your God and are careful to follow all these commands I am giving you today. 6For the Lord your God will bless you as he has promised, and you will lend to many nations but will borrow from none. You will rule over many nations but none will rule over you.

7If anyone is poor among your fellow Israelites in any of the towns of the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward them. 8Rather, be openhanded and freely lend them whatever they need. 9Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: “The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near,” so that you do not show ill will toward the needy among your fellow Israelites and give them nothing. They may then appeal to the Lord against you, and you will be found guilty of sin. 10Give generously to them and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to. 11There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your fellow Israelites who are poor and needy in your land."

The above passage says (1) Every 7 years, all debts must be cancelled, and even apart from that (2) even if a year for cancelling debts is near, and a poor brother is in need of something, he should be helped.

And the two blessings promised are this (1) If we are careful to obey this, Almighty God will richly bless us "if only you fully obey the Lord your God" in these matters, and (2) "then because of this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to" (verse 10). These are Great Promises imo and still apply.

God Bless.

I think prosperity gospel has a bad name because some pastors or others abuse or misuse it as a personal "get rich quick" scheme, which is totally wrong. What God Promises is very different. God promises personal and national prosperity and certain conditions attached to gain it. If they are diligently, faithfully and scrupulously followed, they will lead to prosperity in the long run.

Agreed, brother. Your post reminds me of a verse in Tobit. It's a Deuterocanonical book, but it says the same:

Tobit 4:

"5 “Remember the Lord our God all your days, my son, and refuse to sin or to transgress his commandments. Live uprightly all the days of your life, and do not walk in the ways of wrongdoing. 6 For if you do what is true, your ways will prosper through your deeds. 7 Give alms from your possessions to all who live uprightly, and do not let your eye begrudge the gift when you make it. Do not turn your face away from any poor man, and the face of God will not be turned away from you. 8 If you have many possessions, make your gift from them in proportion; if few, do not be afraid to give according to the little you have. 9 So you will be laying up a good treasure for yourself against the day of necessity. 10 For charity delivers from death and keeps you from entering the darkness; 11 and for all who practice it charity is an excellent offering in the presence of the Most High ... 16 Give of your bread to the hungry, and of your clothing to the naked. Give all your surplus to charity, and do not let your eye begrudge the gift when you make it. 17 Place your bread on the grave of the righteous, but give none to sinners. 18 Seek advice from every wise man, and do not despise any useful counsel. 19 Bless the Lord God on every occasion; ask him that your ways may be made straight and that all your paths and plans may prosper. For none of the nations has understanding; but the Lord himself gives all good things, and according to his will he humbles whomever he wishes.

Thanks for sharing, brother. I certainly agree, as it says in 1 Tim 6, that godliness with contentment is great gain. With what we have, we should be content. If God blesses us financially, we should bless others, be grateful, and store Treasures in Heaven. I think we all agree with that.

God Bless.

Jesus said the poor will always be with us. Eradication of poverty, while noble, will never happen and it moves the priority of salvation to a lower status. We should always focus on the spiritual need and meet physical need as God supplies.
Many a ministry has been derailed as they lost their first focus and first love