If we want to celebrate the birth of Christ, why not pick a new date and new name?

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arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
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#21
The very name Christmas comes from Catholicism (Christ's Mass). There are many people who eschew all things Catholic but seem to have no problem celebrating Christ's Mass. The date December 25 is the day of the winter solstice according to the Julian calendar used by the Romans. It was the day of the sun's rebirth.

So we see, December 25 has both Catholic and pagan origins. Many will argue that they are okay celebrating Christ's Mass because they simply ignore the Catholic and pagan elements and remember the birth of our Lord. But how does one ignore the Catholic and pagan elements when the very date and name reflect them?

I would suggest if Christians can't help themselves from observing our Lord's birthday, a new date and name should be chosen that doesn't reflect Catholicism and paganism; something that is separate and distinct from the world.
You don't have to call it Christmas, if you don't want to. The City of Philadelphia just changed the name of Christmas to the 'Holiday Season' and it's annual tree to the 'Holiday Tree'. Most businesses already now refuse to recognize Christmas, instead it's the 'Winterfest or Holiday Season'.

So, Resident Alien, you are free to celebrate, or not celebrate Christmas, any way you want and to call it anything you want.

As for me, I'll be celebrating Christmas, the birth of Jesus, with a couple billion other Christians around the world, on 25 Dec.
 

arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
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778
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#22
The very name Christmas comes from Catholicism (Christ's Mass). There are many people who eschew all things Catholic but seem to have no problem celebrating Christ's Mass. The date December 25 is the day of the winter solstice according to the Julian calendar used by the Romans. It was the day of the sun's rebirth.

So we see, December 25 has both Catholic and pagan origins. Many will argue that they are okay celebrating Christ's Mass because they simply ignore the Catholic and pagan elements and remember the birth of our Lord. But how does one ignore the Catholic and pagan elements when the very date and name reflect them?

I would suggest if Christians can't help themselves from observing our Lord's birthday, a new date and name should be chosen that doesn't reflect Catholicism and paganism; something that is separate and distinct from the world.
ResidentAlien, how come you forgot about Easter, are you gonna be changin that too?????????
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,271
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#23
ResidentAlien, how come you forgot about Easter, are you gonna be changin that too?????????
I'm not changing anything. I'm suggesting an alternative for those who would like to observe a day to the Lord's birth but who don't want to associate themselves with Christ's Mass or December 25th. Sorry if this upsets you.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
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#24
"If we want to celebrate the birth of Christ, why not pick a new date and new name?"

If we want to celebrate the birth of Christ, why pick a new date and new name? :confused::unsure:
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
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#25
I sometimes think of the Grinch as a Resident Alien... or is it vice-versa? :unsure:

:alien:
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
1,776
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#27
What I'm getting at is Christians really seem to love Christ's Mass and it baffles me why?
Did we look into what "Mass" means? to be sent, send out, to go, something like that I think. Not really sure how that word being used by Catholics .. no clue here.

So were talking about Dec 25th... so lets just say that day is just pure pagan. No different then Oct 31st. Now in the book of beginnings I'm sticking with the one that made the days. Only guessing here but I don't think there is any "day" that man has not done something evil wicked

Its like when this witch tells this preacher everything he can do and he did some very strange things. Then tells the preacher "what can your God do?". This is a true story. The preacher had no words.. was really praying asking God lol in that moment for help. Then God said to him "do not put me to a stupid test".

This is not something that truly for a lack of a better word "bothers" the op. I bet there are allot of Catholic Churches and every other kind of Church in your city that you are not will not go to each one and share this with them. Sorry op I mean no offense but this is not about you or me or a day. Its about the messiah. What year is it? 2022 yeah you really think no one has talked about debated about this over and over and over and over before? I'm 61 and I can not tell you how many times I have heard this over those 61 years and guess what? Nothing has changed. Its about CHRIST not a day. I have never thought what else did some man do evil bad on this day.. man is not lord over that day or any day. IF that makes sense.

Man when I get to heaven I am still going to be shouting praising Him for coming and dying for the sin of the world.
 

arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
1,405
778
113
#28
The very name Christmas comes from Catholicism (Christ's Mass). There are many people who eschew all things Catholic but seem to have no problem celebrating Christ's Mass. The date December 25 is the day of the winter solstice according to the Julian calendar used by the Romans. It was the day of the sun's rebirth.

So we see, December 25 has both Catholic and pagan origins. Many will argue that they are okay celebrating Christ's Mass because they simply ignore the Catholic and pagan elements and remember the birth of our Lord. But how does one ignore the Catholic and pagan elements when the very date and name reflect them?

I would suggest if Christians can't help themselves from observing our Lord's birthday, a new date and name should be chosen that doesn't reflect Catholicism and paganism; something that is separate and distinct from the world.
ResidentAlien, you may want to watch a rerun of the Jerry Seinfeld show in which George's family officially changed the name of Christmas to 'Festivus' and moved it to Dec 23. Here's more info on the subject: Festivus: How to celebrate in 5 easy steps | CNN
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#31
Nov 26, 2021
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India
#33
I happened on some site or maybe on tv some people, maybe Jewish, claim that Christmas is a Jewish holiday. Did not listen to their explanation, but your post may explain their claim.
Yes, others too have noticed the Christmas and Hannukah connection. Please see the 2nd article below on that for a Jewish perspective on how both are Festivals of Light. Before that, I want to post Early Church sources that handed down Christ's Day of Birth long before the time of Emperor Constantine in the 4th Century.

"The Baptist being born in late June, as shown in the Second Point, Christ Our Lord certainly would have been born around late December. The witness of Tradition, of very early historical Tradition, is clear on this point.

Bp. Theophilus (115–181 A.D.) stated: “We ought to celebrate the birthday of Our Lord on what day soever the 25th of December shall happen.”

Saint Hippolytus (170–240 A.D.) wrote: “The First Advent of our Lord in the flesh occurred when He was born in Bethlehem, was December 25th, a Wednesday, while Augustus was in his forty-second year, which is five thousand and five hundred years from Adam.

St. Augustine finally confirms: “But he was born, according to Tradition, upon December the 25th.” From: https://onepeterfive.com/dates-years-birth-death-christ/

St. Augustine indeed was 4th century, but the others were earlier than that.

"How Christmas is linked to Hanukkah
Without the Maccabees’ victory and the preservation of Jewish religious life in ancient Israel, Christianity may not have emerged 200 years later with its taproots deeply embedded within Judaism.

Photo courtesy of Flickr, Creative Commons
December 8, 2017

(RNS) — Hanukkah, which begins Tuesday evening (Dec. 12) has been incorrectly called the “Jewish Christmas” because both holidays emphasize light and take place during the darkest days of winter.
While the two festivals are very different in message and observance, there are, however, some significant links between Hanukkah and Christmas. The New Testament records that Jesus, like other Jews of his time, celebrated the eight days of Hanukkah: “It was the feast of the Dedication at Jerusalem; it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the portico of Solomon.” (John 10:22-23) The Hebrew word “Hanukkah” means “Dedication.”

https://religionnews.com/2017/12/08/how-christmas-is-linked-to-hanukkah/
 
Nov 26, 2021
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India
#34
And here's another article by Dr. Taylor Marshall from 2012 which explains what happened in the 4th century as a response to 3 objections. Fairly long, but worth reading for those interested in studying the history of the issue.

"https://taylormarshall.com/2012/12/yes-christ-was-really-born-on-december.html

"
The Catholic Church, from at least the second century, has claimed that Christ was born on December 25. However, it is commonly alleged that our Lord Jesus Christ was not born on December 25. For the sake of simplicity, let us set out the usual objections to the date of December 25 and counter each of them.

Objection 1: December 25 was chosen in order to replace the pagan Roman festival of Saturnalia. Saturnalia was a popular winter festival and so the Catholic Church prudently substituted Christmas in its place.


Reply to Objection 1: Saturnalia commemorated the winter solstice. Yet the winter solstice falls on December 22. It is true that Saturnalia celebrations began as early as December 17 and extended till December 23. Still, the dates don’t match up.


Objection 2: December 25 was chosen to replace the pagan Roman holiday Natalis Solis Invicti which means “Birthday of the Unconquered Sun.”


Reply to Objection 2: Let us examine first the cult of the Unconquered Sun. The Emperor Aurelian introduced the cult of the Sol Invictus or Unconquered Sunto Rome in A.D. 274. Aurelian found political traction with this cult, because his own name Aurelianderives from the Latin word aurora denoting “sunrise.” Coins reveal that Emperor Aurelian called himself the Pontifex Solis or Pontiff of the Sun. Thus, Aurelian simply accommodated a generic solar cult and identified his name with it at the end of the third century.


Most importantly, there is no historical record for a celebration Natalis Sol Invictus on December 25 prior to A.D. 354. Within an illuminated manuscript for the year A.D. 354, there is an entry for December 25 reading “N INVICTI CM XXX.” Here N means “nativity.” INVICTI means “of the Unconquered.” CM signifies “circenses missus” or “games ordered.” The Roman numeral XXX equals thirty. Thus, the inscription means that thirty games were order for the nativity of the Unconquered for December 25th. Note that the word “sun” is not present. Moreover, the very same codex also lists “natus Christus in Betleem Iudeae” for the day of December 25. The phrase is translated as “birth of Christ in Bethlehem of Judea.”


The date of December 25th only became the “Birthday of the Unconquered Sun” under the Emperor Julian the Apostate. Julian the Apostate had been a Christian but who had apostatized and returned to Roman paganism. History reveals that it was the hateful former Christian Emperor that erected a pagan holiday on December 25. Think about that for a moment. What was he trying to replace?


These historical facts reveal that the Unconquered Sun was not likely a popular deity in the Roman Empire. The Roman people did not need to be weaned off of a so-called ancient holiday. Moreover, the tradition of a December 25th celebration does not find a place on the Roman calendar until after the Christianization of Rome. The “Birthday of the Unconquered Sun” holiday was scarcely traditional and hardly popular. Saturnalia (mentioned above) was much more popular, traditional, and fun. It seems, rather, that Julian the Apostate had attempted to introduce a pagan holiday in order to replace the Christian one!


Objection 3: Christ could not have been born in December since Saint Luke describes shepherds herding in the neighboring fields of Bethlehem. Shepherds do not herd during the winter. Thus, Christ was not born in winter.


Reply to Objection 3: Recall that Palestine is not England, Russia, or Alaska. Bethlehem is situated at the latitude of 31.7. My city of Dallas, Texas has the latitude of 32.8, and it’s still rather comfortable outside in December. As the great Cornelius a Lapide remarks during his lifetime, one could still see shepherds and sheep in the fields of Italy during late December, and Italy is at higher latitude than Bethlehem.


Now we move on to establishing the birthday of Christ from Sacred Scripture in two steps. The first step is to use Scripture to determine the birthday of Saint John the Baptist. The next step is using Saint John the Baptist’s birthday as the key for finding Christ’s birthday. We can discover that Christ was born in late December by observing first the time of year in which Saint Luke describes Saint Zacharias in the temple. This provides us with the approximate conception date of Saint John the Baptist. From there we can follow the chronology that Saint Luke gives, and that lands us at the end of December.

Saint Luke reports that Zacharias served in the “course of Abias” (Lk 1:5) which Scripture records as the eighth course among the twenty-four priestly courses (Neh 12:17). Each shift of priests served one week in the temple for two times each year. The course of Abias served during the eighth week and the thirty-second week in the annual cycle.[ii]However, when did the cycle of courses begin?


Josef Heinrich Friedlieb has convincingly established that the first priestly course of Jojarib was on duty during the destruction of Jerusalem on the ninth day of the Jewish month of Av.[iii]Thus the priestly course of Jojarib was on duty during the second week of Av. Consequently, the priestly course of Abias (the course of Saint Zacharias) was undoubtedly serving during the second week of the Jewish month of Tishri—the very week of the Day of Atonement on the tenth day of Tishri. In our calendar, the Day of Atonement would land anywhere from September 22 to October 8.


Zacharias and Elizabeth conceived John the Baptist immediately after Zacharias served his course. This entails that Saint John the Baptist would have been conceived somewhere around the end of September, placing John’s birth at the end of June, confirming the Catholic Church’s celebration of the Nativity of Saint John the Baptist on June 24.


The second-century Protoevangelium of Saint James also confirms a late September conception of the Baptist since the work depicts Saint Zacharias as High Priest and as entering the Holy of Holies—not merely the holy place with the altar of incense. This is a factual mistake because Zacharias was not the high priest, but one of the chief priests.[iv]Still, the Protoevangelium regards Zacharias as a high priest and this associates him with the Day of Atonement, which lands on the tenth day of the Hebrew month of Tishri (roughly the end of our September). Immediately after this entry into the temple and message of the Archangel Gabriel, Zacharias and Elizabeth conceive John the Baptist. Allowing for forty weeks of gestation, this places the birth of John the Baptist at the end of June—once again confirming the Catholic date for the Nativity of Saint John the Baptist on June 24.


The rest of the dating is rather simple. We read that just after the Immaculate Virgin Mary conceived Christ, she went to visit her cousin Elizabeth who was six months pregnant with John the Baptist. This means that John the Baptist was six months older that our Lord Jesus Christ (Lk 1:24-27, 36). If you add six months to June 24 you get December 24-25 as the birthday of Christ. Then, if you subtract nine months from December 25 you get that the Annunciation was March 25. All the dates match up perfectly. So then, if John the Baptist was conceived shortly after the Jewish Day of the Atonement, then the traditional Catholic dates are essentially correct. The birth of Christ would be about or on December 25.

...
 

Eli1

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2022
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#35
I appreciate your knowledge on Church history and theology Xavier but this isn’t about a date at all.

It’s about celebrating the incarnation of the Lord as a few others have suggested.
And Others also said that the Grinch doesn’t like this. :D
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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#36
Merry Christmas everyone
 

Bob-Carabbio

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Jun 24, 2020
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#37
The very name Christmas comes from Catholicism (Christ's Mass). There are many people who eschew all things Catholic but seem to have no problem celebrating Christ's Mass. The date December 25 is the day of the winter solstice according to the Julian calendar used by the Romans. It was the day of the sun's rebirth.
Yup - Everybody knows that Dec 25 has nothing to do with Christ's birth chronologically, and that it's just a Re-purposed Pagan celebration that's part of our equally pagan year end customs. I think we all are fully aware that "Christmas" is primarily an economic engine designed to separate families, and people from their financial resources, so that the rich can become richer - etc.

And we throw in some "religious" content to make it palatable (pa rump a pum pum), and televise maudlin Hallmark horrors about.

So we don't really have to do anything about any of it, and individuals can make as big, or as small a fuss about it as they please. Personally I just endure the Hoop-La until it's over, and all packed away in the barn again.
 

arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
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#38
ResidentAlien's idea is not new. Many Christians are unaware that the celebration of Christmas was illegal in both the USA and England. "Shocking as it sounds, followers of Jesus Christ in both America and England helped pass laws making it illegal to observe Christmas, believing it was an insult to God to honor a day associated with ancient paganism," according to "Shocked by the Bible" The Surprising Truth: Christians Once Banned Christmas | Live Science

Maybe ResidentAlien is just trying to take us back a few centureis???????????

Throughout history, there have been many countries that have banned Christmas, like Russia, Cuba, China.......etc.....
Fortunately, Christmas keeps a comin back, even in those countries.

But Christmas is still illegal in North Korea. Maybe that's where ResidentAlien is from???????????
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,271
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#39
So we don't really have to do anything about any of it, and individuals can make as big, or as small a fuss about it as they please. Personally I just endure the Hoop-La until it's over, and all packed away in the barn again.
At least you're honest about being a hypocrite.