The Rapture

My first concern on the subject is that the word "rapture" isn't found anywhere in the new testament. It is a man made doctrine based on the mistranslation of I Thess 4:13-18. The subject is in verses 13-14. You are not to be ignorant concerning those that fell asleep (died) believing in Christ. If you believe Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. Those that died in Jesus were raised with him and are now in heaven with God. He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

I Thes 4:15- We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. Why? Because they have already risen. 16- For the Lord shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Why? Because they are already there. 17- Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We which remain until the Lord's coming, at the last or 7th trump, will be gathered in the cloud of angels which will return with him. It doesn't mean a cloud in the sky, but a cloud of witnesses. We will meet him in the air, which is to say a spiritual body that we are all changed into at his coming. Air doesn't mean atmosphere, but the the spiritual body explained in I Cor 15:35-54. We have two bodies, the flesh natural body and the spiritual body that we are changed into at the last Trump when Jesus returns.

I Cor 15: 51-52-I shew you a mystery, we shall not all sleep (die), but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of the eye, at the LAST TRUMP, for the trump shall sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible (because they are already there), and we (that remain) shall be changed (into that spiritual body). No one is going to fly away to escape the tribulation of Satan (son of perdition/antichrist), when he comes claiming to be God, II Thess 2:1-4. It is our job to stand against him and expose his lies, Mark 13:9-11. Don't be deceived by false doctrines. Study to show yourself approved and make the stand against the devil, Eph 6:11-17. May God give you eyes to see and understand.

Interresting.
Becareful the premillennial dispensationalist will have a fit at you. We have some extreme ones here too.

Thank you for this. Could you summarize briefly what is your main point? Thanks.

Your Right as far as The word Rapture specificity ------the word is Caught Up ------that is Found in both the Old And new Testament ====you and others can argue about this term all you want but that won't stop Jesus from catching Up His People with Him when the time comes -----Enoch and Elijah were both taken before they died ---they were Caught UP ---by God ------as was Jesus when He left the Disciples to go to heaven ------so People need to get that God can CATCH UP ---Rapture ------Whoever He wants AND just because we SAY that there is no such word in the Scripture -does not Mean that it is not there --------the word used is CAUGHT UP

People like to just come to their own conclusions about Scripture instead of researching it by and through asking the Holy Spirit for guidance ---in what the scripture is really saying ------sad ---but true ------

Reasarch ---research --and -research is needed ----by looking up the words in the languages used in that period of time ------

Who are we to argue with God's Word -----which says it is TRUTH --------

https://bible.org/question/where-did-term-8216rapture’-come
-
Where did the term 'rapture' come from?


Regarding the term rapture and its use in theology the following should answer your questions. It is taken from Ryrie’s Basic Theology, Electronic Media from Parsons Technology.

Ya have to wonder if these guys that say the word "rapture" isn't in Scripture means there's no such thing,
ALSO believe that there's no "Trinity" because that word is NOWHERE in Scripture.

The Rapture is not only Post-Tribulation but also Post-Resurrection, i.e. Post-Resurrection of the Saints. It happens on the Last Day, when Christ Returns, at the End of History, accompanied by the Archangel's Loud Trumpet. It is not a secret event.

And it is not Pre-Tribulation. It is Post-Trib and after the visible Resurrection of the Saints and the Loud Trumpet of the Archangel at Christ's Final Coming. See the reference in 1 Thess 4 below. Those waiting for a hidden "secret pre-trib rapture" are unfortunately going to be disappointed, just as they have been disappointed for 50+ years, since pre-trib rapture is not Biblical.

"1 Thess 4:Believers Who Have Died
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

v. 15 says those who are alive will not precede those who have fallen asleep i.e. the Resurrection happen before the Rapture.
v. 16 confirms this when it ends by saying those who have died in Christ will rise first. It also shows the Rapture is Post-Second Coming. The Rapture also is not a secret event but happens after the Loud Trumpet call of the Archangel.
v. 17. clearly says the Rapture is only after the events in v. 15 and v.16.

Thus, in summary, The Rapture takes place after (1) The Second Coming of the Lord down from Heaven (vs. 16a/beginning), (2) After the dead in Christ rise first vs 16b/end) and (3) also after the Loud Trumpet of the Archangel, and not in secret.

God Bless.

You really don't know what to say when you read Rapture is no where in the bible. "rapiti = kidnapped abducted raptured abductees enraptured caught up captured captivated stolen enchanted snatched fascinated".

Because we that talk about this study this preach this know it means caught up. Really? 2022 and a simple search would have answered this. Then the "man made doctrine". Have to do some digging but anyone and most that truly talk about this debate it will tell you all about those from 300-400Ad and before who wrote about talked about? Rapture/caught up.

So Rapture/caught up is going to happen and sorry we do not get a say when just the fact He will come in the clouds voice,shout,trump will sound dead will rise and as Paul said "we" which remain will all be caught up together to meet Him in the air to be with Him forever. What I have a problem with is when others tell me what Gods word is REALLY saying as if they have some inside information that no one else can have. That goes against the word of God for no one can do this.

Well ------I say to you -----that you ---then don't believe the scriptures or your just ignorant of what the Scriptures says about how one gets the inside information that others can't get -------

Either you don't have the Holy Spirit indwelling in you or your not using what Jesus gave you to understand the meaning behind the Scripture -----

The Bible is a SPIRITUAL BOOK For SPIRITUAL people ---the HOLY SPIRIT is God ---so you have God indwelling in you who is the only Person who can give you the Inside Spiritual Meaning behind the words in the Scripture -----but not many use or ask the Holy Spirit for help in understanding the scripture --they try and and make a mess of their understanding in my view -----

We humans cannot and can never by and through our own understanding get the Spiritual revelation of the Scriptures ---ONLY God can give us that -----and we have God in us to help us with that ---
If we don't utilize what we have that is on us ------Jesus provided the means ------we have to believe it and ask God in us to help us understand

Your quote here ------
That goes against the word of God for no one can do this.[/QUOTE]

NO that doesn't go against what the Scripture says -----the Word says the Holy Spirit will teach you all things -----that is scriptural ----you don't know the scriptures or you don't understand the Scriptures ---it is one or the other -----

KNOW your Scriptures and Believe them -----see verse 11 below ------


1 Corinthians 2:6-14

English Standard Version



Wisdom from the Spirit

6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away.

7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.

8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But, as it is written,
“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.

11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.

13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.[a]


14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Read full chapter
Footnotes

1. 1 Corinthians 2:13 Or interpreting spiritual truths in spiritual language, or comparing spiritual things with spiritual

and then this Scripture ---says ---very scriptural here -------

PLEASE NOTE :Bottom verse ------Worth Repeating ------- YOU Have NO NEED To Be Instructed By Anyone BUT The HOLY SPIRIT ------





This is the full verse from the Amp Bible ----So watch the last verse ---below --

there is a stipulation here ---it says ----
just as His anointing has taught you, you must remain in Him [being rooted in Him, knit to Him].

1 John 2:27

Amplified Bible

27 As for you, the anointing [the special gift, the preparation] which you received from Him remains [permanently] in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you.

But just as His anointing teaches you [giving you insight through the presence of the Holy Spirit] about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as His anointing has taught you, you must remain in Him [being rooted in Him, knit to Him].

God says------ Ask ---Seek ---Knock ----and if you take the first Letter of each word here --It Spells ASK --

So Ask the Holy Spirit for help in your understanding of His Spiritual Word -----the more your in the Word who is Jesus the more Spiritual Knowledge is revealed by the Holy Spirit -----be rooted and grounded in the Word ---and ask for understanding

Main point...You will escape the tribulation of Antichrist (Satan), simply by knowing he comes first before Jesus, pretending to be him and thus, you will not worship him. You don't need to rapture or fly away, you just need to know the truth.

...and also believe there is no such thing as a Bible because the is no such word in the... Bible.

Rapture= Caught up= Obvious Biblical Fact.

The Rapture by any other name or phrase from any translation = The Rapture.

So what you're saying is, ALL english (and other languages as well) Bible translators mistranslated the verse. But you got it right though.

The KJV translators didn't even believe in the pre-trib rapture they were 1600s Calvinists, what incentive would they have in translating a doctrine into the verse they don't even believe in?

Thanks.

I guess that we could expand this to mean that speaking any language(s) other than Ancient Hebrew, Ancient Greek and/or Ancient Aramaic is unbiblical... what are we to do?

the word Rapture is found in the Latin Bible if you have an issue with that, then throw away your English tranlation.

I say ----Many believe the Rapture is Pre--Trib and many believe it is Post Trib ----but IF YOU study Revelation by and through ASKING the Holy Spirit for help in your revelation of what is the difference between the Rapture of the Saints and the Second Coming ------you might just begin to understand these are 2 different events -----

The scripture clearly states that there is no Condemnation for those in Christ Jesus ------so what does that mean ----???????????

Romans 8 AMP Bible

Escape from Bondage
8 Therefore there is now no condemnation [no guilty verdict, no punishment] for those who are in Christ Jesus [who believe in Him as personal Lord and Savior].

Greek word for condemnation

Strong's Concordance
katakrima: penalty
Usage: punishment following condemnation, penal servitude, penalty.

So ask yourselves ---is this Scripture Romans 8:1--True or a Lie -------

The 7 year tribulation ----is brought on by God Himself --to punish the wicked the unbelieving and hopefully bring them to the realization that they can't save themselves --they need a Saviour ====they need to repent and turn to Christ ====

So if the scripture is true above ===the Saint are free from any condemnation ---so why would God leave the Saints to endure the punishment brought on by His Wrath through the 7 year Tribulation when He clearly said there is no condemnation for the Saints ----that is God going against His own Word ---that makes no sense -----
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are differences in the descriptions between the 2 Events as well --------the 1st coming and the 2nd coming

The 1st coming of Jesus says this ----

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

English Standard Version
The Coming of the Lord
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.

14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,[a] that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

I say
So we see here in this Scripture that verse 14 is important -----as Jesus defeated death ----and that needed to take place before Jesus could resurrect the Dead in Christ --

14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again,-----so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

Verse 16 and 17 are important ----to note ----as 16 says Jesus descended from heaven with a with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God.

We see the dead rise first ---then those who are alive ----are caught up ---this is important as we see that Jesus is in the air --and the dead and alive Saints go up to meet Jesus in the air -------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the Second Coming ----we see that Matthew 24 is all about -----

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+24&version=AMP

Signs of Christ’s Return

Matthew 24:29-31 --Amplified Bible

The Glorious Return
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not provide its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 And at that time the sign of the Son of Man [coming in His glory] will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth [and especially Israel] will mourn [regretting their rebellion and rejection of the Messiah], and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliance and splendor].

31 And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet and they will gather together His elect (God’s chosen ones) from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I say
So we see that in this 2nd coming ------which is different from the 1st ----as He comes with power and great glory ----no cry of command ---no archangel ----and no trumpet sounding for His Coming --like in the 1st coming -----the Trumpet is announcing the sending of the Angels and it says they will gather the Saints not Jesus Himself -------

verse 30 -----they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliance and splendor].
verse 31 ----He will send His angels with a loud trumpet and they will gather together His elect

Then it says this -----Matthew 24====this is Jesus here placing judgment on the unsaved -----taking one and leaving one ====the one left is saved ==the one taken is judged -----verses 40-41 below

36 “But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son [in His humanity], but the Father alone.

37 For the coming of the Son of Man (the Messiah) will be just like the days of Noah.

38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the [very] day when Noah entered the ark,

39 and they did not know or understand until the flood came and swept them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be [unexpected judgment].

40 At that time two men will be in the field; one will be [h]taken [for judgment] and one will be left.

41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken [for judgment] and one will be left.

and here in Matthew 24 we see the FOOTNOTES

1. Matthew 24:40 This is not the removal of the church described in 1 Thess 4:13-18 and Rev 3:10. The one taken is taken for judgment just as the wicked were taken by the flood in Noah’s day. The one left is left to enter the kingdom that Christ will establish.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So I don't know how people can say that the Rapture is Post Tribulation -------the 2nd coming is so different than Jesus coming to Rapture His Church -----the Rapture seems to be PRE Trib not Post Trib -in my book ----and the Scripture proves it ------

That is hardly a cause for concern. The term "rapture" is now firmly embedded in Christian vocabulary, but if you want to be picky you can always resort to "caught up together" or "harpagesometha" (so that no one really understands what you are talking about). As a matter of fact it was the scholar Jerome (who translated the Latin Vulgate) who used the term "rapiemur" for "caught up together", and that is from where the term "rapture" is derived. It briefly sums up what Christ will do when He comes for His Bride.

What most Christians have failed to see is that this extraordinary and glorious event is in fact the Resurrection/Rapture. The saints who have passed on will receive glorious, immortal, and incorruptible bodies. But the saints who are alive at that time will be fully perfected, and also receive their glorious (light radiating) bodies. The resurrection of the saints is guaranteed by God Himself, and even Job was aware of this fact.

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a divine necessity so that the Holy Spirit and the Church (also indwelt by the Holy Spirit) are "taken out of the way". That is the only way that Satan and the Antichrist can take full control of the earth. The second important reason is that the Marriage of the Lamb must take place in Heaven while there are divine judgments poured out upon the earth, as a display of God's wrath against the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the wicked. Since the saints are not subject to the wrath of God, they are removed from the earth prior to divine judgments (just as Lot was forcibly removed from Sodom before fiery judgments were poured out).

“so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; ( already happened )

and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”( his return )
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:28‬ ‭KJV‬

“Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:9-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch, confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭14:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Christian persecution comes because of this

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭5:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

While Christian’s are in this world tribulation is part of the journey some face terrible times and endure others face common trials and endure not everyone is going to experience the same tribulations the early church suffered through but this is part of faith

“Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: and others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: they were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (of whom the world was not worthy

they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:35-

Our salvation comes as we endure through this world and whatever it brings against us and don’t lose our faith because our home is on the other side. We’re going to face trials some will be great others will be slight but the world doesn’t want Christian’s Jesus has something better prepared after the tribulations of this world

confusing

I thought rapture origninally meant your were being raped.


But then boy at school was called Rapture and his sister was called Miracle. And their cousin was called Blessing.

Ive also had a Lazarus, Ephesisan, Patience, Honesty, Nevaeh (Heaven backwards) and heaps of Aaliyahs

rapture is a word of man to express a feeling of intense pleasure or joy

It was then used by millennialists implied upon the the misunderstood idea that Jesus is going to take the church from earth and then the tribulation would begin

the scripture really isn’t obscure about it jesus promised his disciples would go through many tribulations beginning on the generation of the first church , which began almost immediately and that first generations tribulation culminated in 67 - 70 ad when Rome was burned , subsequently Jerusalem was sacked and burned and completely destroyed even the temple was taken down stone by stone to steal the gold that melted between the stones

after this came Titus persecutions and Nero’s hideous rule as Christian’s we tortured and killed in fanciful torments terrible evils were put upon them because they wouldnt deny Jesus and confess the many Roman gods

they were crucified soaked in oiled linens and set ablaze to light Romes streets , beheaded ,dismembered , wrapped in bloody animal skins and eaten by hungry dogs , just to name a few of thier tribulations

The early church was literally slaughtered by Rome and those left escaped into other nations where they carried the gospel and spread it through believers upon believers through the generations

a tribulation is a perpetual state of the earth Christian’s have faced it continually through time since Jesus established the church it will continue until the last day of this world when suddenly this will happen

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The dead are raised at the end after the tribulation

“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:47-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; the field is the world;

the good seed are the children of the kingdom;

but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

the enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:37-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This all seems to be 'much ado about nothing', for the word: "rapture" is ike any term one might use to describe something, rather than use many words. "Rapture" simple means such as 'lifted up in joy", so what is wrong with that? One might also say with more wording: 'the Church called up to Heaven in great joy'. Certainly this only refers to the universal Church --"bride of Christ"; this being when all the saints still alive on earth are called up out of this world. When we EACH die it is an individual thing, and we who are "born again" as in John 3:16 go to our Savior: the Lord Jesus in Heaven.
Well, let us always be "rightly dividing the Word of Truth" and holding "all the counsel of God" as He asks of us.
Keep looking up!

-1ambassador