Jesus is God

Alpha and Omega are Greek letters. Remember, Jesus is often referred to as the Word. Right? This is a reference to power and authority of Jesus’ words, but he isn’t coming out and saying “I am God” there.

Read my responses in that thread again. My entire thesis in that thread is about what the Pharisees believed about Jesus and how their claims that Jesus claimed he is God is false because Jesus never said that. I am not even talking about what I believe there.

I think you’ve added a lot of your commentary and you’re free to make deductions, but you’re misrepresenting me. I have never even read the Watchtower magazine, fellowshipped with any JWs, or been to a Kingdom Hall. So you got me all wrong, as most people seem to do on this forum.

I’ve said this at least a half dozen times now, but Bible discussions are scholarly to me and I’m staunchly Biblical and a lot of people will find it impossible to pry me away from what the Bible doesn’t plainly say.

That’s why I prefer to keep it more scholarly and academic and less personal.

As far as the Trinity Goes, I am a Trinitsrian since I believe in the Trinity, but the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit aren’t the same Person; that’s very clear. The Father is God who delegated power and authority to Jesus for the time being. The Holy Spirit is God’s Spirit.

Please refer to Paul’s theology about the Father and Son, below: this is how I view it too.

1 Corinthians 15
25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.27For “God has put everything under His feet.”b Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him. 28And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.

The Spirit of God, Jesus' Father, didn't rest on Jesus until after his water baptism. This voice from heaven speaking is Jesus' Father, aka God, who referred to Jesus as His Son.

Matthew 3
16As soon as Jesus was baptized, He went up out of the water. Suddenly the heavens were opened, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and resting on Him. 17And a voice from heaven said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased!”

.The way I see it: The Word, as creator, has always been God-- however, the flesh that The Word became hasn't always been God.

Read my responses in that thread again. My entire thesis in that thread is about what the Pharisees believed about Jesus and how their claims that Jesus claimed he is God is false because Jesus never said that. I am not even talking about what I believe there.

I think you’ve added a lot of your commentary and you’re free to make deductions, but you’re misrepresenting me. I have never even read the Watchtower magazine, fellowshipped with any JWs, or been to a Kingdom Hall. So you got me all wrong, as most people seem to do on this forum.

I’ve said this at least a half dozen times now, but Bible discussions are scholarly to me and I’m staunchly Biblical and a lot of people will find it impossible to pry me away from what the Bible doesn’t plainly say.

That’s why I prefer to keep it more scholarly and academic and less personal.

As far as the Trinity Goes, I am a Trinitsrian since I believe in the Trinity, but the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit aren’t the same Person; that’s very clear. The Father is God who delegated power and authority to Jesus for the time being. The Holy Spirit is God’s Spirit.

Please refer to Paul’s theology about the Father and Son, below: this is how I view it too.

1 Corinthians 15
25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.27For “God has put everything under His feet.”b Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him. 28And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.

Is it your supposition, then, that Jesus did not have the Spirit of God until His baptism? or simply, because the Spirit speaks to us in the language of the Son, scripture says that the Spirit testifies of Him, Jesus manifested the Father and the Spirit, as Son of Man, to man?

What other reason would there be to cite Mark 10:18 and John 14:28 had you not intended to attack the idea of consubstantiality? Your post of these texts did not really go into any explanation.

How many ways do you want to twist almighty or you just going to ignore that, can you get mightier than Almighty....no

Psalm 138 says "thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name."

God created everything through his Word

Think on this verse a while

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Thank you. I didn't think there was a plain verse of Jesus claiming to be God.

Any other takers?

Mark 10:18 and John 14:28 explain what the Father to Son relationship is. Jesus' Father and is greater than Jesus and Jesus would have no power or authority whatsoever unless his Father gave it to him.

John 5:30
30I can do nothing by Myself; I judge only as I hear. And My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

I wouldn't call that an attack on any idea, that wasn't my intention, I just like to show what the Bible says because I accept that as truth. If ideas can't stand Biblical scrutiny then they aren't good ideas.

Given the verses I quoted, do you think Jesus is greater than or equal to his Father? Do you believe they're the same person? If so, please quote any verse that says so.

Before you do, I know about the "I am my Father are one" verse. Where the Jews who were listening laid the false charge against Jesus that he had claimed to be God. Seemingly perplexed as to why they would pick up rocks to stone him in John 10:32, Jesus said “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone Me?” They replied, “We are not stoning You for any good work,” said the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because You, who are a man, declare Yourself to be God.”

Jesus didn't claim to be God. Actually, he went on to debunk them. Jesus proved that he claimed to be the Son of God and used scripture from the Law to prove it.

John 10
34Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’? 35If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36then what about the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? How then can you accuse Me of blasphemy for stating that I am the Son of God?

The prologue of John’s gospel speaks of the Word existing “with” God. The term used here for “with” is the Greek word πρὸς (pros), which, when followed by a noun in the accusative case, speaks of face-to-face communion, interaction. One does not need to leave the first chapter of John to find examples in which πρὸς signifies a person near or moving towards another person (e.g., 1:29, 42, 47). Of course, this comports well with John 17:5, where Jesus speaks of His pre-existence with the Father. This πρὸς τὸν θεὸν (John 1:1b) language or some slight variation thereof, is used throughout the Testaments — some (17) occurrences of the phrase found within the NT, according to NA28 (Jn. 1:1, 2, 13:3; 1 Jn 3:21; Rev. 12:5, 13:6; Acts 4:24, 12:5, 24:16; Romans 5:1, 10:1, 15:30; 2 Cor. 3:4, 13:7; Phillippians 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:8, 9) — and another 20+ examples in the Genesis and Exodus accounts of the Greek OT/LXX (Gen. 17:18, 18:27, 18:31, 20:17, 24:49, 24:54, 24:46; Exodus 2:23, 3:11, 3:13, 8:25, 8:26, 9:29, 10:18, 18:19, 19:8, 19:21, 19:23, 19:24, 24:1, 24:2, 32:30). Also, similar phraseology (πρὸς τὸν πατέρα) is found in John 5:45; 14:6, 12, 28; 16:10, 17, 28; 20:17; 1 John 1:2. In each of these occurrences (aside from the occurrences where the neuter article τὰ is present), they explicitly refer to distinct individuals in some form of communication with one another.

You do understand the difference between Unitarianism and Trinitarianism, right? Unitarianism is the idea that God exists as one sole individual. That’s what differentiates it from Trinitarianism. Trinitarianism isn’t the idea that Jesus is the person of the Father, but that they are truly distinct persons, existing alongside one another, communicating with one another, and sharing in the divine nature. But even in your latest response it seems that you are conflating this idea with a form of Unitarianism referred to as Modalism,

“When Jesus said "I am the Father are one" he was referring to spiritual union. If we can understand what it means to be one with Jesus, one united body, then we can understand what it means for Jesus and his Father to be one. Again, it doesn't mean that when we are one united body that we become each other, but rather we are connected.”

As if this is even what I’m arguing for. Modalists cite John 10:30 to teach that Jesus and the Father are the same person. They believe that prior to the incarnation Jesus existed as the Father, and that it was the Father that came down from heaven in flesh. So your comments here are out of place.

You keep insisting that the Jews are falsely accusing Jesus of being the Father (John 10:30); however, you are not interacting with what I have put forth as arguments against your interpretation. I will repeat those arguments here:

• Prior to His statement made in John 10:30 (“I and the Father, we are one”), Jesus refers to God as His “Father” seven times.
  
  
• The neuter adjective ἕν (“one”) is used, indicating a unity of essence, not personal identity.
  
  
• The plural verb ἐσμεν (“are”) is used. Thus, 10:30 is rendered, “I and the Father, we are (ἐσμεν) one.” This requires a distinction to be made between Jesus and the Father.

'Before Abraham was, I AM'

Jesus is calling Himself the one who spoke to Moses at the burning bush.

Given everything I've said throughout our dicussions over here (click me!), is it not clear what I believe about Father and Son? For someone to be "equal" to another naturally requires them to be distinct in their person. So no, Father and Son are not the same persons, and I have made that abundently clear when I said,

How do you read any of this, and then ask the question, "Do you believe they're the same person?" Let's start off by answering that, and then I can address your other questions as they pertain to Mark 10:18, John 14:28, and the equality of Father and Son.

My main point is that this shows the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinctly different. If they were exactly the same then what's with Jesus getting water baptized to do what God requires, then the Holy Spirit descending upon him, and a voice from heaven calling Jesus His Son? What do you make of that? Is that all the same person?

In that passage, Jesus said this:

John 8 KJV
42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Jesus did not seek his own honor or glory:
49Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me
50And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

Since Jesus only honors his Father and does not seek his own glory, when Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am" he was referring to Who he proceeded forth from, that is God:
58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

There are many heretical or confused teachings about the Holy Trinity. But to keep it simple here is how one should see it:
GOD THE THE FATHER IS NEITHER THE SON NOR THE HOLY SPIRIT
GOD THE SON IS NEITHER THE FATHER NOR THE HOLY SPIRIT
GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NEITHER THE FATHER NOR THE SON

Three distinct divine Persons, yet one God to be accepted by faith not human reason.

Exactly. The words of the scripture testify of Jesus hence he not only is the Word but also his words will never pass away

And the Word was God. John 1:1