"Faith + Works =...

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HealthAndHappiness

HealthAndHappiness

Well-known member
#41
Jul 7, 2022
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Almost Heaven West Virginia
#41
Pilgrimshope said:
Amen

“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Its the works of the law v the fruits of the gospel

A work of the law

“And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭21:23-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭19:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Equal revenge


a word of faith and righteousness contrasted against the contrary work Of the law

“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:


but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Don’t take revenge and repay evil with evil do good to those who do evil against you

they are contrary one is to make us know our son and guilt before God to bring us to our knees in humility without hope in ourselves

the other is to offer salvation and Hope to remit our sins imputed by the law to wash the guilty stains away and teach us to live as the children of God believed and right before him


Without us being humbled and condemned by by law no one would ever seek a savior and redeemer and put thoer faith in him

air we didn’t know we were wrong we could never repent and get right and Jesus would t be so important to us
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That is a good study of the word on the topic of grace or works of the law.
Yes, and the term "repent" normally meaning to change your mind or reconsider. That is why I believe it refers to the change of one's mind from trusting in the flesh to keep the law, etc to trusting the Lord Who is the Savior.
After calling upon the Lord for His gift of salvation, we have much growth in His family " as newborn babes desire the sincere milk of the word." I keep growth separate from the birth as discipleship from the issues of salvation. It sounds like you are too.
 
wattie

wattie

Senior Member
#43
Feb 24, 2009
3,235
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#43
GRACE_ambassador said:
...Justification

“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him That Justifieth ​
the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” (Rom. 4:5).​

As this verse clearly affirms, salvation in The Dispensation Of Grace is By
Grace Through faith, apart from works (Eph. 2:8,9; Titus 3:5). However,
just because salvation is by faith without works today, it must not be
assumed that salvation has always been by faith alone. Compare Paul’s
words in our text above to the words of the psalmist:

“Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment...And THAT​
was counted unto him for righteousness” (Psa. 106:30,31).​

See the difference?...

...Old Testament...heroes of faith...

...“without faith it is impossible to please Him” (Heb. 11:6). But the faith of each
of these heroes also prompted them to express their faith by doing whatever
work God Required of them...

...Today, when salvation is By Grace Through faith without works, * we express our
faith by simply resting in The Finished Work Of Christ On Calvary...
"
(R Kurth)

FULL study:

Faith + Works = Justification

* Of Course, Today, There Are works [for rewards] after salvation: Which Works To Walk In

View attachment 245778
-------------------------------------
Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!​
Click to expand...
Old Testament saints saved by works? Not sure about that.

Both David and Job believed in a redeemer. Abraham believed before he offered up his son Isaac. His act of service to God in being ready to offer up his son was 'justified ' .. but not for getting eternal life.

I believe OT saints were saved the same way as NT.. looking forward to Jesus instead of looking at what He has done as we do now. Still saved by grace thru faith in Jesus.

The OT prophets testify of Jesus.

Jesus said.. before Abraham was.. I AM.

Different ways of service OT and NT .. not a different way of salvation.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#45
Jan 13, 2016
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#45
Pilgrimshope said:
Brother you have a lot of strange interpretations in my own belief, but I’m sire you see me the same way

one thing I always always always appreciate about you is you never get hostile that’s is commendable and endearing

Anyways brother I’ve pretty much made my argument and appreciate your good spirit as usual also respect your right to believe what you believe
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Same to you. Remember, Luther so much struggled with trying to reconcile James with Paul that he wanted to light its pages with his stove.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#46
Jan 13, 2016
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#46
Nehemiah6 said:
Hebrews 11 refutes that fully.
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Hebrews 11 actually backs it up. You get faith and works all through it. By faith they responded with works. Our work has been accomplished on the cross. The faith of Jesus Christ justifies the believer.

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#47
Jan 13, 2016
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#47
Ted01 said:
Things that I find interesting in James are that James says in vs 1: James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ...

If this was a letter to a Jewish audience, it wouldn't endear him to his intended audience. After all, the Jews were being
taught a different account of Jesus... Jesus was an anathema. They positively hated the Christians, right?
So, I believe that his readers would have been converted Jews.

Added to this is that he doesn't go ahead and try to convert in this epistle like the author of Hebrews seems to do. Instead,
James builds on the teachings of others.
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At least part of the audience, they had not received the word and their souls were not saved.

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
 
wattie

wattie

Senior Member
#48
Feb 24, 2009
3,235
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#48
John146 said:
Hebrews 11 actually backs it up. You get faith and works all through it. By faith they responded with works. Our work has been accomplished on the cross. The faith of Jesus Christ justifies the believer.

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Click to expand...
Yes declared righteous/believed before the works were done.

Responding in works to already given salvation.

Hebrews 11 they had their works 'justified ' but this is not justified for eternal salvation.

'By faith' they did these works.

Not that the works made the faith. God gave the salvation so they could do the works.

In James 2 .. 'faith without works is dead '

'Dead' in the context of this chapter is lifeless, dormant, unused'

Not 'never had it to begin with' or ' the works saved them'
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#49
Jul 18, 2017
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#49
John146 said:
You get faith and works all through it.
Click to expand...
But no one was SAVED by works. Works confirmed that they were justified by grace THROUGH FAITH. Noah was deemed righteous BEFORE he began to build the Ark. Abraham was deemed righteous BEFORE he prepared Isaac for sacrifice.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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#50
Mar 1, 2022
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#50
Nehemiah6 said:
But no one was SAVED by works. Works confirmed that they were justified by grace THROUGH FAITH. Noah was deemed righteous BEFORE he began to build the Ark. Abraham was deemed righteous BEFORE he prepared Isaac for sacrifice.
Click to expand...
And long before he was circumcised.
 
wattie

wattie

Senior Member
#51
Feb 24, 2009
3,235
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#51
Nehemiah6 said:
But no one was SAVED by works. Works confirmed that they were justified by grace THROUGH FAITH. Noah was deemed righteous BEFORE he began to build the Ark. Abraham was deemed righteous BEFORE he prepared Isaac for sacrifice.
Click to expand...
Ah.. I think I misunderstood your earlier post sorry on 'Hebrews 11 refutes that fully ' .. were you saying OT saints weren't saved by works.. because Hebrews 11 refutes works salvation?
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#52
Jul 18, 2017
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#52
wattie said:
Ah.. I think I misunderstood your earlier post sorry on 'Hebrews 11 refutes that fully ' .. were you saying OT saints weren't saved by works.. because Hebrews 11 refutes works salvation?
Click to expand...
Correct. It is all about "by faith".
 
ResidentAlien

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
#53
Apr 21, 2021
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#53
John146 said:
Same to you. Remember, Luther so much struggled with trying to reconcile James with Paul that he wanted to light its pages with his stove.
Click to expand...
Paul isn't hard to reconcile with James. I don't know what Bible Luther was reading:

"This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men." Titus 3:8

"Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." James 2:17

Sounds pretty similar to me.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#54
Jul 18, 2017
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#54
ResidentAlien said:
"This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men." Titus 3:8
Click to expand...
Good works should automatically follow genuine salvation by grace through faith. But they can never save anyone, nor keep anyone saved. They will produce either rewards or lack of rewards.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#55
Jan 13, 2016
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#55
wattie said:
Yes declared righteous/believed before the works were done.

Responding in works to already given salvation.

Hebrews 11 they had their works 'justified ' but this is not justified for eternal salvation.

'By faith' they did these works.

Not that the works made the faith. God gave the salvation so they could do the works.

In James 2 .. 'faith without works is dead '

'Dead' in the context of this chapter is lifeless, dormant, unused'

Not 'never had it to begin with' or ' the works saved them'
Click to expand...
By works a man is justified. Do you believe this?
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#56
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
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#56
Nehemiah6 said:
But no one was SAVED by works. Works confirmed that they were justified by grace THROUGH FAITH. Noah was deemed righteous BEFORE he began to build the Ark. Abraham was deemed righteous BEFORE he prepared Isaac for sacrifice.
Click to expand...
No one was saved period. None of them had the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Again, no amount of works justifies what we’ve got. Christ is the Just and the justifier of those that believe. His faith justifies.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#57
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
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#57
ResidentAlien said:
Paul isn't hard to reconcile with James. I don't know what Bible Luther was reading:

"This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men." Titus 3:8

"Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." James 2:17

Sounds pretty similar to me.
Click to expand...
How much works justifies the believer? At what point is the believer justified?
 
Pilgrimshope

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
#58
Sep 2, 2020
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#58
HealthAndHappiness said:
That is a good study of the word on the topic of grace or works of the law.
Yes, and the term "repent" normally meaning to change your mind or reconsider. That is why I believe it refers to the change of one's mind from trusting in the flesh to keep the law, etc to trusting the Lord Who is the Savior.
After calling upon the Lord for His gift of salvation, we have much growth in His family " as newborn babes desire the sincere milk of the word." I keep growth separate from the birth as discipleship from the issues of salvation. It sounds like you are too.
Click to expand...
“That is why I believe it refers to the change of one's mind from trusting in the flesh to keep the law, etc to trusting the Lord Who is the Savior.”

As Christian’s who have believed in Jesus we need to accept the truth regarding our deeds d the impact it’s going to have on us

see this part is true and is taught to believers taught to the church who accept the gospel what I mean is things like this throughout the new testsment don’t allow me to separate what I do from My eternal judgement

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

because I accept that I’m not able to ignore how clear it is and how repetitive in the epistles it’s this same principle

“Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;

but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭6:7-10‬ ‭

this clear and repetitive principle doesn’t allow Me to believe hypergrace salvation that removes our accountability for what we do after we believe. But instead it just keeps solidifying this in my heart

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

aim not able to say “ I’m saved and won’t receive the due reward for my deeds whether good or bad “ because I believe what’s there and don’t want to accept a deception teaching me “ thats not true you won’t reap what you sow your already saved “

some say “ well the judgement seat of Christ isn’t about salvation and neither is what we do good or bad “ but I’m not able to go with that because I would have to reject what it says

“righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:”

“unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;”

So I’m sort of aiming at this and have been for a long time so taking accountability for what I do and don’t do each day is a benefit in my life

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Do all things without murmurings and disputings: that ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Gods work in us is to change our Will , and our actions from sin to righteousness which is what leads us to salvation

In the end believing in Jesus isn’t an excuse of why we don’t need to obey him , but believing in Jesus and his word is what changes us in our mind and heart teaches us to repent of sin and pursue with zeal righteousness

awe need to let the gospel change our core and the rest will follow but our actions tell the truth and is what we will be judged upon if I say I believe I need to live that belief
 
Pilgrimshope

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
#60
Sep 2, 2020
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#60
John146 said:
Same to you. Remember, Luther so much struggled with trying to reconcile James with Paul that he wanted to light its pages with his stove.
Click to expand...
a yeah I never met Luther and don’t put faith in any man I just accept the scripture and believe and pursue that Luther , Calvin , the pope ect tbey all have to answer for thier own lives deeds and teachings it doesn’t mean anything at all to me if Luther couldnt accept the book of james

luther should have accepted what the Bible repetitively says about eternal judgement and our deeds and he would have understood james perfectly when he said you have to actually live faith and not just say it
 
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