Struggling reading through romans 8 & 9 and Calvinism.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#341
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#341
oyster67 said:
Christ died for all men. This is fundamental core Christian Doctrine.

Only those who accept and believe shall be saved. This also is fundamental core Christian Doctrine.

No person is cleansed by Christ's blood until they come to The Lord and yield themselves to Him.

What you are promoting here on CC is not Christianity.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
Click to expand...

By "fundamental core christian doctrine" you mean it is the doctrine of eternal salvation by works, that most of God's born again children believe in, then I agree.

Just the same as it was in the old testament days, when most of the house of Israel turned away from him to the same false doctrine, but thankfully, God left in the midst of them an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD. The remnant of Israel shall do no iniquity, nor speak lies, neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth, for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

Believing is not the cause of ones eternal inheritance. If you are one of Jesus sheep, that his Father gave him, then you are already saved. Those that are not his sheep, do not believe. (John 10:26-29.

Tell me if these scriptures are referencing the same world that John 3:16 has reference to.

John 14:17 - Even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive.

John 15:18-19 - If the world hat you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own, but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

John 16:20 - Verily, Verily, I say unto you, that ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice, and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall turn into joy.

John 17:9 - I pray for them, I pray not for the world, but for them thou hast given me, for they are thine.

John 17:14 - I have given them the word, and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Obviously, the world in John 3:16, that God loves, is not the same world referenced in these scriptures, but instead is the world of his sheep.
 
V

VARob

Banned
#343
Dec 21, 2020
1,825
474
83
#343
ForestGreenCook said:
By "fundamental core christian doctrine" you mean it is the doctrine of eternal salvation by works, that most of God's born again children believe in, then I agree.

Just the same as it was in the old testament days, when most of the house of Israel turned away from him to the same false doctrine, but thankfully, God left in the midst of them an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD. The remnant of Israel shall do no iniquity, nor speak lies, neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth, for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

Believing is not the cause of ones eternal inheritance. If you are one of Jesus sheep, that his Father gave him, then you are already saved. Those that are not his sheep, do not believe. (John 10:26-29.

Tell me if these scriptures are referencing the same world that John 3:16 has reference to.

John 14:17 - Even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive.

John 15:18-19 - If the world hat you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own, but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

John 16:20 - Verily, Verily, I say unto you, that ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice, and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall turn into joy.

John 17:9 - I pray for them, I pray not for the world, but for them thou hast given me, for they are thine.

John 17:14 - I have given them the word, and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Obviously, the world in John 3:16, that God loves, is not the same world referenced in these scriptures, but instead is the world of his sheep.
Click to expand...
^^^ Eisegesis. ^^^
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#345
Nov 20, 2018
22,865
8,333
113
#345
ForestGreenCook said:
I agree that God gave mankind the freedom to make choices as to how he wants to live his life here on earth, but mankind's eternal inheritance is by God's sovereign grace, without the choice of mankind.
Click to expand...
Mat 13:44
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.


Mat 13:45
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:

Mat 13:46
Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#346
Nov 20, 2018
22,865
8,333
113
#346
VARob said:
It’s false. God wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9). Anyone has the capacity to believe the Gospel.
Click to expand...
I do not think that any mortal person truly comprehends the predestination vs free will question.

Both are described in Scripture.

As for us.....we are to preach. Arguing musing and propounding on the matter seems to be a waste of time.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#347
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#347
cv5 said:
Mat 13:44
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.


Mat 13:45
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:

Mat 13:46
Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
Click to expand...

"The kingdom of heaven" is one of many names of the church that Christ is the husband of. These scriptures are not referencing eternal heaven.
 
V

VARob

Banned
#349
Dec 21, 2020
1,825
474
83
#349
cv5 said:
I do not think that any mortal person truly comprehends the predestination vs free will question.
Click to expand...
God wants us to come to an understanding of the truth (1 Tim 2:4).

Both are described in Scripture.
Click to expand...
The Christian church was predestined, not individual Christians.

As for us.....we are to preach.
Click to expand...
Agreed! If everything was predestined, there would be no point to it.

Arguing musing and propounding on the matter seems to be a waste of time.
Click to expand...
Sometimes it seems so, but again, God wants us to know the truth. That means it’s possible to know it.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#350
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#350
hornetguy said:
I'm not sure what you are trying to get at. God loves THE WORLD. Not some word parsed "this world" "that world" kind of place.
God hates sin. God's plan was for ALL men to be saved, but He also knew there would be many that reject Him. God loved "the world" enough to send His son to die for "the world".... why do you try to make it something other than that?
Click to expand...

I hope that you are not one of those who discards the scriptures that does not fit your theory. There is a world that Jesus will not pray for, and it is not the same world that is referenced in John 3:16.


VARob said:
It happens when a person hears the Gospel and decides to believe it.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Click to expand...
The unregenerate person, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, cannot believe in the things of the Spirit, until he has been regenerated by God. thinking them to be foolishness.


Being sealed (confirmed) with the Holy Spirit's promise, not the Holy Spirit himself, which was given when God quickens a person to the new Spiritual life. The Holy Spirit's promise is the earnest of our inheritance, a pledge.
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#351
Nov 20, 2018
22,865
8,333
113
#351
hornetguy said:
I'm not sure what you are trying to get at. God loves THE WORLD. Not some word parsed "this world" "that world" kind of place.
God hates sin. God's plan was for ALL men to be saved, but He also knew there would be many that reject Him. God loved "the world" enough to send His son to die for "the world".... why do you try to make it something other than that?
Click to expand...
Indeed. The term "the world" in that context describes the world of men. All men and women everywhere. Including Judas and the Jewish leadership, you and I.
 
C

CorrectiveLens

Banned
#352
Dec 30, 2020
868
228
43
#352
VARob said:
You posted the context without realizing it. Those verses are talking about fools.

Also, none are righteous because we all sin. We all need the salvation provided through Christ.
Click to expand...
The fools are those that say that there is no God.
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#353
Nov 20, 2018
22,865
8,333
113
#353
VARob said:
God wants us to come to an understanding of the truth (1 Tim 2:4).


The Christian church was predestined, not individual Christians.


Agreed! If everything was predestined, there would be no point to it.


Sometimes it seems so, but again, God wants us to know the truth. That means it’s possible to know it.
Click to expand...
We are to wonder and be in awe of these things. Not boast about intellectual mastery over them......which we certainly do not possess.
 
K

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
#354
Oct 8, 2017
1,881
720
113
#354
The major fault I see with Calvinism is that it violates a basic test left us by Paul. The verse is worded as a statement rather than a test, but it can be used to test any doctrine you might consider adopting/defending. It is this:

1 Corinthians 15:33
"Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners."

That means an evil doctrine will undermine & discourage good efforts & behavior.

From what I understand, Calvinism basically states that anyone not meeting some unknown and unchangeable pre-criteria is doomed to die no matter what they do or if they seek God, ask, knock, pray, etc. That would NOT encourage people to try... or to seek God. It destroys hope and puts almost everyone into the false status mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:19 KJV:

"If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable."

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 
V

VARob

Banned
#355
Dec 21, 2020
1,825
474
83
#355
ForestGreenCook said:
The unregenerate person, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, cannot believe in the things of the Spirit, until he has been regenerated by God. thinking them to be foolishness.
Click to expand...
1 Cor 2:14 does not say “unregenerate person.” It says psuchikos, which means “soulish,” or “of the soul.” IE: a natural person, a person influenced by the world. There are Christians who live their lives that way… Any person, Christian or not, can change their thinking and become concerned about things of the spirit.

Being sealed (confirmed) with the Holy Spirit's promise, not the Holy Spirit himself, which was given when God quickens a person to the new Spiritual life. The Holy Spirit's promise is the earnest of our inheritance, a pledge.
Click to expand...
That’s not what the text says. It says “ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.” Or “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” After we heard and decided to believe the Gospel, we were sealed with the Holy Spirit himself.
 
V

VARob

Banned
#356
Dec 21, 2020
1,825
474
83
#356
cv5 said:
We are to wonder and be in awe of these things. Not boast about intellectual mastery over them......which we certainly do not possess.
Click to expand...
Don’t minimize what God wants us to do. He wants us to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4).
 
Journeyman

Journeyman

Well-known member
#358
Jan 10, 2019
2,107
763
113
#358
smmartin0507 said:
The more I read the more I lean towards Calvinism. I can’t wrap my head around it. Wouldn’t our choice to believe be a work? where does free will come in and what does the Bible say about it?? Any help is appreciated
Click to expand...
In Rom.8, Paul is saying God forenew believers. God determined from the beginning that people who would come to faith in him would be his people and are destined for his eternal Kingdom.
In Rom.9, it's the same. People of faith are Gods' chosen people.
Also, God simply hardened Pharaohs' heart by sending Moses with a demand. Praraoh was a god to the Egyptians.
 
C

CorrectiveLens

Banned
#359
Dec 30, 2020
868
228
43
#359
hornetguy said:
From Paul's letter to Timothy...

3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all,

Pretty plain...
Click to expand...
Our God and Savior is Jesus Christ who even though He obeys the Father to perfection and has divine love for the Father, He also has divine love for all mankind. Jesus explains that all the things that He says and does is the Father's will, not His. CHrist died for all mankind which makes all of mankind eligible for salvation, but it is the Father who chooses who will be placed in the spiritual body of Christ. He does not save everybody because He wants to show His wrath and consequences for disobedience to those beings that are in the spiritual realm.
In 2 Peter 3: 9 Peter is talking about US, those that are predestined to salvation ( past, present, and future). He is slack in returning to judge the world until all those predestined in the future come to repentance and get saved.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.