Struggling reading through romans 8 & 9 and Calvinism.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,871
8,335
113
#81
The more I read the more I lean towards Calvinism. I can’t wrap my head around it. Wouldn’t our choice to believe be a work? where does free will come in and what does the Bible say about it?? Any help is appreciated
The short answer is that God's sovereign choice and our free will are BOTH spoken to in the Bible. Salvation is assured for the elect, yet all who thirst may come of their own free will.

No problem as far as God is concerned of course. The supposed paradox is a result of our fallen state IMO.

Paradox resolution occurs in higher dimensional space BTW.

Isa 55:1
Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

Rev 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.


I would not dwell too much on such terms as "Calvinism" or "Arminianism". They are very shabby human constructs. If anything they are impediments to the truth of the Bible.

If you genuinely thirst and sincerely seek Jesus, confess what you are (a sinner) and Who He is (Lord and Savior), and then abide, you will be saved.
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
6,191
2,508
113
#82
The doctrine of Calvinism (500 years old) is a false doctrine that borders on heresy. The problem that most people have with Romans is that they see it as if it were written to us. Using out-of-context scriptures can be very deceptive.
Nope....
It's not 500 years old. It's much older.

This very question and two Theological systems were addressed by John in his Gospel in the account of "The Man Born Blind ".

Jesus answered by saying that Arminians AND Calvinists are both wrong.

Our sins, or lack thereof, are not the basis upon why God chooses to bless one person over another with faith. Nor does God spin a lottery wheel to make a determination.

Every person is born with a particular capacity...and God as the Master Potter makes the best vessel He can out of the clay He has to work with.
 
Apr 15, 2022
255
54
28
#83
It's not 500 years old. It's much older.

This very question and two Theological systems were addressed by John in his Gospel in the account of "The Man Born Blind ".

Jesus answered by saying that Arminians AND Calvinists are both wrong.

Our sins, or lack thereof, are not the basis upon why God chooses to bless one person over another with faith. Nor does God spin a lottery wheel to make a determination.

Every person is born with a particular capacity...and God as the Master Potter makes the best vessel He can out of the clay He has to work with.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly, I'm not an Arminian either. Didn't John Calvin live to about 500 years old? (I am happy to learn more). 🤠
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,039
6,543
113
62
#84
It's not 500 years old. It's much older.

This very question and two Theological systems were addressed by John in his Gospel in the account of "The Man Born Blind ".

Jesus answered by saying that Arminians AND Calvinists are both wrong.

Our sins, or lack thereof, are not the basis upon why God chooses to bless one person over another with faith. Nor does God spin a lottery wheel to make a determination.

Every person is born with a particular capacity...and God as the Master Potter makes the best vessel He can out of the clay He has to work with.
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly, I'm not an Arminian either. Didn't John Calvin live to about 500 years old? (I am happy to learn more). 🤠[/QUOTE]
Didn't He make the lump to begin with?
 
Apr 15, 2022
255
54
28
#85
[God chooses to bestow His grace on whoever He wills. He does this by changing their state of being by first granting the repentance necessary to turn to Him for the forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ]

I disagree with your take. God has bestowed His grace on Christ not on individuals, so that whosoever may believe, may come to Him (Mark 16:15-16). Salvation has been granted to the whole world THROUGH CHRIST. This is the reason the gospel is called the good news. Paul said in Rom. 2:15 that the Gentiles demonstrated the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them. That took place when they didn't know the Lord yet, therefore those who harden their hearts through their own volition, will receive condemnation, but those who see the wickedness around them and desire to change, God will grant them the opportunity to hear the good news of Yeshua, the Messiah of the whole world, and repent.
 
Apr 15, 2022
255
54
28
#86
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly, I'm not an Arminian either. Didn't John Calvin live to about 500 years old? (I am happy to learn more). 🤠[/QUOTE]

Didn't He make the lump to begin with?[/QUOTE]

Uh? 😵‍💫
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#87
What’s the difference between calvinism and what you wrote?
I'm glad you asked.
I wrote:
It is not complicated at all. It is a fact that the group of believers (called the Church) is elect and predestined for Heaven. Nothing can snatch her out of God's hand. Jesus calls all to open the door and come in and be a part of this group. There is nothing complicated about the Gospel. Calvinism is a false Gospel.

Revelation 3:20
“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”
Calvinists believe that men are not capable of opening the door. Are you familiar with the tenets of Calvinism? If not, then you should not be wearing the badge.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,756
4,119
113
63
#89
I'm glad you asked.
I wrote:


Calvinists believe that men are not capable of opening the door. Are you familiar with the tenets of Calvinism? If not, then you should not be wearing the badge.
Was Jesus not talking to the Luke warm church when He spoke this...?
 
Oct 29, 2022
73
32
18
#90
The more I read the more I lean towards Calvinism. I can’t wrap my head around it. Wouldn’t our choice to believe be a work? where does free will come in and what does the Bible say about it?? Any help is appreciated
Why do you want to place yourself in a category? if you want to be true, stick to the gospel given DIRECTLY by Jesus the son of GOD, you cannot go wrong if you do this.

Many blessings and welcome
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#91
Revelation 3:20
“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”

Was Jesus not talking to the Luke warm church when He spoke this...?
Talking to anyone who would/will listen.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,756
4,119
113
63
#92
Revelation 3:20
“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”



Talking to anyone who would/will listen.
He was talking to a church that was bankrupt in their faith...He was not talking to individuals , but to an empty church that was not worshipping Him in truth...The church lacked true believers , they were luke warm...If there was one true believer listening , He would come and sup with him...This verse is not about everyone , but to the luke warm church...
 

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
1,410
771
113
#93
I'm glad you asked.
I wrote:


Calvinists believe that men are not capable of opening the door. Are you familiar with the tenets of Calvinism? If not, then you should not be wearing the badge.
I don’t wear any badge but that of grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#94
He was talking to a church that was bankrupt in their faith...He was not talking to individuals , but to an empty church that was not worshipping Him in truth...The church lacked true believers , they were luke warm...If there was one true believer listening , He would come and sup with him...This verse is not about everyone , but to the luke warm church...
He was talking to any man.

The Bible is addressed to all of us. That includes the letters to the Churches, Paul's Epistles, and everything else. God's offer of salvation is extended to all, not just a few lucky master-class Calvinists.

Revelation 3:20
“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,756
4,119
113
63
#95
He was talking to any man.

The Bible is addressed to all of us. That includes the letters to the Churches, Paul's Epistles, and everything else. God's offer of salvation is extended to all, not just a few lucky master-class Calvinists.

Revelation 3:20
“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”
He was talking to a church , a luke warm church...Jesus will not come into a wretched heart and sup , we must be born again...God has to give us a new heart before the Holy Spirit lives in us...The door was to the church , one of the seven He was warning...Anyway , why did you throw calvin at me ? just because I see Scripture not the same as you ?...Anyway , I will leave this alone now , I understand the Scripture...
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#96
.Jesus will not come into a wretched heart and sup
He will if they open their hearts door and let Him in. Let's review the Gospel:
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

Again, let's review who it is for:
Matthew 9:12
“But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.”

We must come humbly, just as we are, and let Jesus do the cleansing, healing, and filling. Jesus did what we could not do. He paid the price that we could not pay.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,917
852
113
#97
Welcome.

There are many denominations and sects born out of hyper-focusing on archaic words, stripping them from their plain meaning and transforming them into doctrines that cause later readers to stumble. I'd like to share a bit of context and then (hopefully) allow the scriptures to reveal what they're saying on their own. Of course, always pray before studying asking the Almighty to reveal His plain meaning to you.

Paul's target audience

Rom 1:7
To all
that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.


Who's in Rome?

Jews who believe & Gentile converts who believe (Acts 2:10, 18:2)


The core passage in question

Rom 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


Who did Almighty foreknow?

Rom 11:1-2
I ask then, did God reject His people? Certainly not! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says about Elijah, how he appealed to God against Israel:


Is this confirmed elsewhere?

Amos 3:1-2
Hear this word that the Lord hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

Deut 32:8-9
When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. For the LORD'S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.



Back to the core passage in question [w/brackets inserting scripture]

Rom 8:29
For [the children of Israel], he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


When did Almighty predestinate Israel to conform to the image of His Son?

Hosea 1:10-11
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.


Romans' context confirmed

Rom 8:19, 23 [brackets mine]
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

23 And not only [Israel], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.


Back to the core passage in question [w/brackets inserting scripture]

Rom 8:29
For [the children of Israel], he also did [Preplan] to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


Romans continues

Rom 8:30-33
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.


- (OF) Whom He preplanned = The Children of Israel
- THEM (==>) He called = Specific people of Israel

- (OF) Whom He called = Specific people of Israel
- THEM (==>) He Justified = Those who answer the call

- (OF) Whom He Justified = Those who answered the call
- THEM (==>) He glorified = Those specific people of the children of Israel who answer the call will transform


God's Elect. The remnant of the children of Israel.

Romans 11:1-2, 5-7, 28 [brackets mine]
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew...

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

28 As concerning the gospel, [Remnant of Israel] are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [Remnant of Israel] are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

----


Summary Conclusion:

1) Only Israel was foreknown by God; known before all other nations. Known intimately; covenant.

2) Only Israel is preplanned to confirm into the likeness of His Son.

3) Only the remnant of Israel is the Elect of God. Those who hear the call.

4) Israel was scattered/cast to the winds so that Gentiles have an opportunity for Salvation.
- The kingdom of heaven is like a net (Matthew 13:47)

5) Gentile believers are grafted (like wild branches) into the root of Israel (on the condition they continue in Him)

6) When the full measure of Gentiles comes into Israel (i.e. He knows them too), The Remnant will be regathered.
- The kingdom of heaven is like a net (Matthew 13:47)
- Men will take hold of a Jew and say "we will go with you for God is with you". (Zechariah 8:23)

7) Thus All Israel (Remnant & wild branches) is saved. The Resurrection. The Transformation. The Glory.
You got that right.

That is exactly what the subject of Paul's discourse in the letter to the Romans is all about. Chapter two through to the end of chapter eleven, concerns only the nation of Israel.

Romans 11:1-2
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? Far from it! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

God only ever foreknew the nation of Israel, after all 'foreknew' means those God formerly knew.

Romans is a simple letter written to a church in Rome, explaining why Israel failed to accept their messiah.

Why can't people just read and understand the letter to the Romans?
 
Jan 14, 2021
1,599
526
113
#98
'foreknew' means those God formerly knew.
No, it means "knew ahead of time"

Romans is a simple letter written to a church in Rome, explaining why Israel failed to accept their messiah.
The simple answer comes in two parts: 1) because some of Israel aren't Israel, and; 2) Some like Paul himself are destined to have their blindness removed as God sees fit.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#99
Did I read it right? Eternal salvation IS NOT determined by God's sovereign will. Eternal salvation is determined by whether we CHOOSE to believe in Christ or not. The way is predestined, NOT the individual. God did not make robots out of us. Free will is part of our makeup since we are created in the image of God.

Sorry, statements without scripture back up mean nothing to me.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,871
8,335
113
It is not complicated at all. It is a fact that the group of believers (called the Church) is elect and predestined for Heaven. Nothing can snatch her out of God's hand. Jesus calls all to open the door and come in and be a part of this group. There is nothing complicated about the Gospel. Calvinism is a false Gospel.

Revelation 3:20
“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”
Jhn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Nobody knows the full cosmic reality of these terms of engagement. No need really......if we have entered/opened/drank/received.