Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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Runningman

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cv5 said:
Why? This is why...

Jhn 10:26
“But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

And no, Jesus is never late for an appointment to salvation, never forgets anyone, never loses His own, for He is the Good Shepherd.

Jhn 10:27
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Jhn 10:28
“And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

Jhn 10:29
“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
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In the parable of the lost sheep Jesus added that a lost sheep can go astray and perish:

Matthew 18
12What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them goes astray, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go out to search for the one that is lost? 13And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he rejoices more over that one sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14In the same way, your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

So there’s context to the verses you supplied. Provided you keep the keep there’s no possibility you can be snatched from God the Father’s hand.
 
cv5

cv5

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Runningman said:
In the parable of the lost sheep Jesus added that a lost sheep can go astray and perish:

Matthew 18
12What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them goes astray, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go out to search for the one that is lost? 13And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he rejoices more over that one sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14In the same way, your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

So there’s context to the verses you supplied. Provided you keep the keep there’s no possibility you can be snatched from God the Father’s hand.
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A parable vs definitive unambiguous succinct non-arbitrary declarations. You figure it out. I already have.....
 
R

Runningman

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cv5 said:
A parable vs definitive unambiguous succinct non-arbitrary declarations. You figure it out. I already have.....
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No you haven’t figured it out.

What’s vague to you about a sheep going astray, possibly not being found, and perishing? You think Jesus is talking about literal sheep?
 
Snacks

Snacks

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Runningman said:
Judas lost his salvation after having believed so, given that fact, and the many other verses that prove it, salvation can be lost.
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I’ve read your posts several times regarding why you believe Judas was saved but I say respectfully that you’re reading into things that simply don’t exist.
 
cv5

cv5

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Runningman said:
You think Jesus is talking about literal sheep?
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You think Jesus (JESUS!) is losing sheep/souls/anything anybody? Late for appointments? Has memory lapses? Cannot find things he is looking for? Losing a battle or war or argument or skirmish?

Well......I think that Jesus never.....ever....loses. He is the ultimate and eternal winner, the champion of champions, the supreme overcomer, the true God and Savior who will never fail His sheep and will bring them ALL to glorification so that they can enjoy Him forever.
 
R

Runningman

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cv5 said:
You think Jesus (JESUS!) is losing sheep/souls/anything anybody? Late for appointments? Has memory lapses? Cannot find things he is looking for? Losing a battle or war or argument or skirmish?

Well......I think that Jesus never.....ever....loses. He is the ultimate and eternal winner, the champion of champions, the supreme overcomer, the true God and Savior who will never fail His sheep and will bring them ALL to glorification so that they can enjoy Him forever.
Click to expand...
Matthew 18
12What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them goes astray, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go out to search for the one that is lost? 13And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he rejoices more over that one sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14In the same way, your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

A sheep can go astray and perish. Let that sink in for a minute. Please let me know when you understand what this parable is trying to convey to you.
 
R

Runningman

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Snacks said:
I’ve read your posts several times regarding why you believe Judas was saved but I say respectfully that you’re reading into things that simply don’t exist.
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Thank you for your respectful attitude. That’s quite refreshing Snacks. I also noticed you have a tendency to not use snark or backhanded comments. I love that. Often I am attacked here for just discussing the Bible the way I believe God has revealed it to me.

That’s okay, this is good training for patience and forgiveness. So thanks to everyone who has told me I’m a wackadoo, or followed me around the forum calling me a troll, or told me I’m not a Christian who is going to hell. The weapon formed against me didn’t prosper, but was used for good. Praise God.

So if I may ask, since you read my posts several times regarding Judas, then you saw that Jesus gave Judas the power to heal and cast out demons. Then in Mark 16, Jesus said that those who believe will be able to cast out demons and heal sickness. Furthermore, at one point Jesus told the 12 disciples they will have eternal life and sit on 12 thrones. I quoted these verses before, I can post them again if necessary.

Sorry, I have a tendency to rant!

So if these things don’t exist then how did Judas get these spiritual gifts if he was never a believer?
 
cv5

cv5

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Runningman said:
Please let me know when you understand what this parable is trying to convey to you.
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The point of the parable has escaped you. Par for the course as far as you are concerned bro.....
 
R

Runningman

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cv5 said:
The point of the parable has escaped you. Par for the course as far as you are concerned bro.....
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The conclusion of the parable of the lost sheep is like the conclusion of the parable of the prodigal son.

Luke 15
32But it was fitting to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ ”

This is clear. He was alive then he was dead. When he returned to his father he was alive again. Like a sheep who was lost, he was found once he repented.

What do you say would have happened to this prodigal son had he chosen to never return? Remain dead and lost?
 
Snacks

Snacks

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Runningman said:
Thank you for your respectful attitude. That’s quite refreshing Snacks. I also noticed you have a tendency to not use snark or backhanded comments. I love that. Often I am attacked here for just discussing the Bible the way I believe God has revealed it to me.

That’s okay, this is good training for patience and forgiveness. So thanks to everyone who has told me I’m a wackadoo, or followed me around the forum calling me a troll, or told me I’m not a Christian who is going to hell. The weapon formed against me didn’t prosper, but was used for good. Praise God.

So if I may ask, since you read my posts several times regarding Judas, then you saw that Jesus gave Judas the power to heal and cast out demons. Then in Mark 16, Jesus said that those who believe will be able to cast out demons and heal sickness. Furthermore, at one point Jesus told the 12 disciples they will have eternal life and sit on 12 thrones. I quoted these verses before, I can post them again if necessary.

Sorry, I have a tendency to rant!

So if these things don’t exist then how did Judas get these spiritual gifts if he was never a believer?
Click to expand...
Thank you, Runner for your patience and peaceful demeanor. You deserve to be treated with kindness and respect.

You definitely have valid points regarding Judas, but the one thing I can’t get over is, if he believed Jesus is the Messiah, how could he possibly have turned Him over to be murdered? I just can’t fathom how a believer in Christ, especially someone who walked with Him for three years, could be capable of doing that.

That said, I must concede you support your views with Scripture whereas I do not. I’m simply leaning on my basic human understanding.
 
cv5

cv5

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Runningman said:
The conclusion of the parable of the lost sheep is like the conclusion of the parable of the prodigal son.

Luke 15
32But it was fitting to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ ”

This is clear. He was alive then he was dead. When he returned to his father he was alive again. Like a sheep who was lost, he was found once he repented.

What do you say would have happened to this prodigal son had he chosen to never return? Remain dead and lost?
Click to expand...
Looks like you missed the point of that parable too. Oh well.....
 
cv5

cv5

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Runningman said:
then you saw that Jesus gave Judas the power to heal and cast out demons.
Click to expand...
So much for your theory bro. Exousia has no guarantee of salvation incorporated into it, as you erronously believe. Everybody knows this. Well....almost everybody.

power
g1849
ἐξουσία ἐξουσία exousia

Mat 10:1
And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power G1849 against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Jhn 19:11
Then Jesus said, “You would have no power G1849 over me at all unless it were given to you from above. So the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin.”

Rev 6:8
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power G1849 was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Rev 9:3
And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, G1849 as the scorpions of the earth have power. G1849

Rev 11:6
These have power G1849 to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power G1849 over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
 
R

Runningman

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Mar 4, 2020
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cv5 said:
So much for your theory bro. Exousia has no guarantee of salvation incorporated into it, as you erronously believe. Everybody knows this. Well....almost everybody.

power
g1849
ἐξουσία ἐξουσία exousia

Mat 10:1
And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power G1849 against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Jhn 19:11
Then Jesus said, “You would have no power G1849 over me at all unless it were given to you from above. So the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin.”

Rev 6:8
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power G1849 was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Rev 9:3
And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, G1849 as the scorpions of the earth have power. G1849

Rev 11:6
These have power G1849 to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power G1849 over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Click to expand...
That’s a gross misunderstanding of salvation. Those who believe can get spiritual gifts, such as the ones Judas received. They aren’t saved because they have spiritual gifts.

Mark 16
17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will be made well.”
 
cv5

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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cv5 said:
Why? This is why...

Jhn 10:26
“But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

And no, Jesus is never late for an appointment to salvation, never forgets anyone, never loses His own, for He is the Good Shepherd.

Jhn 10:27
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Jhn 10:28
“And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

Jhn 10:29
“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
Click to expand...
give
g1325
δίδωμι δίδωμιdidōmi

V-PAI-1S
Code: V-PAI-1S Long:Verb - Present Active Indicative - 1st Person Singular
Speech:Verb Tense: present
Voice:Active
Mood:Indicative
Person:1st Person
Number: Singular
 
cv5

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Runningman said:
That’s a gross misunderstanding of salvation. Those who believe can get spiritual gifts, such as the ones Judas received. They aren’t saved because they have spiritual gifts.

Mark 16
17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will be made well.”
Click to expand...
Another swing and a miss for you bro. Try harder?
 
R

Runningman

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Mar 4, 2020
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cv5 said:
give
g1325
δίδωμι δίδωμιdidōmi

V-PAI-1S
Code: V-PAI-1S Long:Verb - Present Active Indicative - 1st Person Singular
Speech:Verb Tense: present
Voice:Active
Mood:Indicative
Person:1st Person
Number: Singular
Click to expand...
Are you attempting to create a theology where unrepentant non-believers get gifts of the Holy Spirit such as the ones Judas had?
 
cv5

cv5

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Runningman said:
Are you attempting to create a theology where unrepentant non-believers get gifts of the Holy Spirit such as the ones Judas had?
Click to expand...
That conversation is only happening in your own head bro......
 
R

Runningman

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cv5 said:
That conversation is only happening in your own head bro......
Click to expand...
Then I’ll just keep stacking up the proof.

Judas did some of the works Jesus had been doing like casting out demons and healing people. Jesus said those kind of works are for those who believe in Him.

John 14
12Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

1 Corinthians 12
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by the same Spirit,9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,10to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in various tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, who apportions them to each one as He determines.
 
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