The killer flaw in pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

They all say about the same thing, Jesus will come and gather His church and in the ensuing chaos Antichrist [the Beast] will come forward and force everyone to receive his mark or die, this is the great tribulation. But there is a killer flaw here.

The beast has been slain in the temple when he sat and declared that he himself is God.

He is destroyed by the brightness of our Lord's appearing and by the breath of His nostrils. No more beast, no more mark of the beast, no more persecution. All that happens BEFORE our Lord Jesus returns,

When Jesus comes He comes to reign.

There will be a period when all the nations that came up to Jerusalem with the beast and all those who did receive his mark will be receive their just deserts a period of 7 years which is all laid out in Revelations. Then the reign of righteousness, peace and prosperity will begin. He will reign through the Jews converted at His appearing.

The church should be looking for the Antichrist, they should be preparing for the awful persecution that is coming ... these times are upon us now and the church is not ready.

Agreed. 1 Thess 4 is very clear that the Rapture happens at the Second Coming, with a Loud Trumpet (not a secret Rapture) and even after the Resurrection of the saints, therefore after the Tribulation as well.

1 Thess 4:

"15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words."

1. Those who are alive will not precede those who are asleep, meaning they will rise gloriously first, only after that those living will be raptured. This is confirmed in the next verses.
2. The Lord Himself will descend from Heaven with a Shout, accompanied by Archangels and the Trumpet of God. Again, no hint whatsoever of a "Secret" Rapture in this passage, but a Public, Loud one, at the very end of time.
3. And then vs 16b and vs 17 shows it very clearly. The dead rise first. The Rapture happens only after the Resurrection of the Saints. Anyone want to say that Resurrection happens before the Tribulation? Of course it does not.
4. Therefore, after the dead in Christ first, and Christ has come again, and the Last Trumpet blown, then the Rapture happens, and the Rapture means, that last generation of Christians do not die, but receive glorified bodies immediately.

God Bless.

Evmur said:

They all say about the same thing, Jesus will come and gather His church and in the ensuing chaos Antichrist [the Beast] will come forward and force everyone to receive his mark or die, this is the great tribulation. But there is a killer flaw here.

The beast has been slain in the temple when he sat and declared that he himself is God.

He is destroyed by the brightness of our Lord's appearing and by the breath of His nostrils. No more beast, no more mark of the beast, no more persecution. All that happens BEFORE our Lord Jesus returns,

When Jesus comes He comes to reign.

There will be a period when all the nations that came up to Jerusalem with the beast and all those who did receive his mark will be receive their just deserts a period of 7 years which is all laid out in Revelations. Then the reign of righteousness, peace and prosperity will begin. He will reign through the Jews converted at His appearing.

The church should be looking for the Antichrist, they should be preparing for the awful persecution that is coming ... these times are upon us now and the church is not ready.

ResidentAlien said:

"Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we beseech you, not to be quickly shaken from your mind, nor be disturbed, neither by spirit nor by word nor by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ has come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is unveiled, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or every object of worship, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Yes.

No.

Revelation 13
11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

The Lord's appearing happens at His Appearing.

Yes. That is when the Lord makes war and destroys the enemies.
Revelation 19
19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

This is the Battle of Armageddon and happens at the very end of the Tribulation. (See Rev 19 above.) This is the time and situation of the Second Coming (not the Rapture.)

The Church should be looking for Jesus.

Amen! And Comforting (1Th 4:18)!! Many Scriptures For
"Looking, Watching And Waiting For The LORD Jesus Christ"!!!:

(2 Thessalonians 2:1; Romans 8:18-19; Romans 8:23; Romans 8:25;
1 Corinthians 1:7; Ephesians 6:12-18; Philippians 3:20; Colossians 4:1-3;
1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:5-11; Titus 2:13)

Amen?

More Rightly Divided Bible study:

Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I
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Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II

The killer flaw in pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

There is no flaw in the pre-trib rapture doctrine-----it is all in the correct way you understand the scripture and apply common sense -----

Why would God keep His Saved people on the earth to be saved again -----that just makes no sense

The tribulation
Is about getting the unsaved --Saved -----God wants all His Creation saved -----many many thousands upon thousands will accept Jesus as their lord and Saviour during the 7 Year Tribulation ----that is the goal of God sending extreme terror here --to save as many people as God can -------it is God's last try to wake people up to know they cannot get into heaven all by themselves ---they need a Saviour -----

We are in the Church age now -------there is not one thing left that has to happen for the Pre-Trib Rapture to happen ---- Jesus has His Church in place ----Jesus defeated death on the cross and took all sin for all people through the shedding of His blood ----everything is in place for the preitrib Rapture of the Church -----and it can happen today --tomorrow ---next Month -next year ---no one knows -----but we are to be ready for it ------

Also if you read Revelation -----you will see that the Church is never mentioned again after Chapter 3 ----this says something as you would think God in trying to save the unsaved would have instructions for His Church to follow to help His cause ---but His Church is never mentioned from Revelation 4 onward --Why because His church was already Raptured -----and is with Him in Heaven -----

And in Revelation 3 ----Jesus says to the last church mentioned ---notice verse 10 -----and after this Chapter there is no more mention of any Church from Revelation 4 to Rev 22

Jesus’ Letter to the Church in Philadelphia

7 “Write this to the angel of the church in Philadelphia:

“Here is a message from the one who is holy and true, the one who holds the key of David. When he opens something, it cannot be closed. And when he closes something, it cannot be opened.

8 “I know what you do. I have put before you an open door that no one can close. I know you are weak, but you have followed my teaching. You were not afraid to speak my name.

9 Listen! There is a group[a] that belongs to Satan. They say they are Jews, but they are liars. They are not true Jews. I will make them come before you and bow at your feet. They will know that you are the people I have loved.

10 You followed my command to endure patiently. So I will keep you from the time of trouble that will come to the world—a time that will test everyone living on earth.

I say
If you look up the word for from used in this scripture --it says this ---Strong's Concordance

of any kind of separation or dissolution of connection with a thing or person --to keep one at a distance from etc. Revelation 3:10;


https://www.gotquestions.org/church-age.html

The Church Age is the period of time from Pentecost
(Acts 2) to the rapture (foretold in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). It is called the Church Age because it covers the period in which the Church is on earth. It corresponds with the dispensation of Grace. In prophetic history, it falls between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27; Romans 11). Jesus predicted the Church Age in Matthew 16:18 when He said, “I will build my church.” Jesus has kept His promise, and His Church has now been growing for almost 2,000 years.

The Second Coming of Christ happens at the end of the 7 year Tribulation when he comes to wage war against Satan -----bringing with Him all the Raptured Saints that went up at the end of the Church age

Interesting Chart

"Eschatology" is just a religious term for "Rank Speculation".

You wrote a lot of stuff but you can't prove or pinpoint that there is a Rapture before the great tribulation. And quoting "got questions" won't cut it either. So let me explain my view based on the Biblical record. At Matthew 24:3 the disciples ask Jesus a very specific question? " Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming, AND THE END OF THE AGE/WORLD."

From verses 4-14 Jesus explains the state of the world. At vs15 is the tip off? The first word is "Therefore, (referring to the previous verses) when you see the Abomination of Desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place. (let the reader understand). Or here is what you should do from verses 16-28/ In short, Jesus says get out of Dodge.

Vs29, BUT immediately after the tribulation of those days The Sun will be darkened and the Moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, vs30, and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, ands then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory." Vs31, "And He (who's the He)? will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

Now, can you please explain to me where in this discourse do you find a rapture of the Church before these things take place? Also notice the following verses. The first one is at 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10. Vs6, "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you." How is God going to repay? Vs7, "and to give you REST/RELIEF to you who are afflicted and to us as well when (WHEN DO WE GET REST?) the Lord Jesus shall be REVEALED from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire."

You can read the rest of the verses yourself but look at vs10, "when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that DAY, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed." The Apostle Paul backs up what Jesus stated at Matthew 24 and this is bore out in the rest of 2 Thessalonians.

One more item of interest at 1 John 2:18. "Children it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist (singular) is coming, even now many antichrist have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour." So here's my question? Why would the Apostle John tell us to look or be aware of the antichrist if nobody is going to be around because they have been raptured?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

One flaw in the pretribulation rapture philosophy? No, there are many. It has more holes than swiss cheese.
Pure dogma, not found in scripture.

God will not give up on the world until the world gives up on Him so He is giving the world 7 years to have their way and go against the truth and when they follow the New Age Christ and take his mark then repentance and salvation are no longer available to the world.

There is only 2 resurrections which is one with the saints before the millennial reign of Christ and one with the dead after the millennial reign of Christ.

There is no pre-7 years period resurrection.

The tribulation is only for the last three and one half years.

The wrath of God is not in the 7 years period because God is giving the world their way for 7 years.

When the New Age Christ, antichrist starts working in the world he will push the agenda of the new age movement until the world rebels against God with all nations governments supporting him which will be the time that they will not want to hear the truth of the Bible but want to hear it according to their own lusts which some shall depart from the faith and follow the new age movement interpretation of the Bible.

The new age movement interprets the Bible and religions according to the occult and evolution and people are still evolving to be spiritual and godlike, and Jesus is a good teacher and love and evolved to be an ascended master, and believe in no personal God but honor the God of forces or the power of nature as their higher power the evolutionary process, and the New Age Christ is the final teacher.

Nothing can be taught contrary to the new age movement or it will be a hate crime and they will say it is not the truth and they want peace.

Paul said do not let any person deceive you by any means for the gathering together of the saints shall not happen until there is a falling away first and the man of sin claims to be God.

Which the falling away is the condition of the world in response to the Gospel which they stopped the preaching of it on a world wide level in favor which caused the transgressors to come to the full which then the man of sin will claim to be God by evolving to be the most advanced being in the universe and will share this power with all people who follow him.

The saints cannot be gathered unto Christ until this happens.

The world has a chance to be saved until they take the mark of the beast then repentance and salvation will not be available to them and God can end sin on earth.

That is why the saints cannot be gathered unto Christ until the man of sin claims to be God.

For the first three and one half years salvation is still available to the world so the saints will remain on earth and the wrath of God is not in the first three and one half years because salvation is still available to the world.

The New Age Christ will claim to be God in the middle of the 7 years period which he has power to continue for three and one half years and has power over all nations, kindreds, and tongues, and the wrath of God would not be there because he is giving the beast three and one half years to rule.

The saints are still on the earth when the beast claims to be God because he blasphemes God and His tabernacle which the beast would not do that if the saints were not on Earth because then the truth would not be on earth for him to go against it which he is saying do not follow Christianity for it is not true for there is no personal God to help mankind and Jesus is not Lord and Savior in an attempt to deceive people.

When the world takes the mark of the beast then the saints can be gathered unto Christ.

But then the Bible says that the beast shall make war against the saints and prevail against them, and he shall destroy the mighty and holy people, and they shall be given in to his hands for three and one half years, and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people then all things shall be finished.

Which then comes the end when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The wrath of God is not in the 7 years period because God is giving the world 7 years to have their way and go against the truth,

When the saints are gathered unto Christ then the wrath of God is poured unto the world which Jesus will put down all rule, authority, and power.

If there is a pre-7 years period resurrection why would God allow them to continue for 7 years when Jesus will put down the world as soon as the saints are gathered unto Him.

And for people who think that the trumpets are the wrath of God they are not but they are warnings to the world to get right with God which after the 6th trumpet they did not repent of their sins and turn to God but they kept on trying to solve their own problems and have peace on earth.

An example is WW1, set up League of Nation, did not turn to God.

After WW2, set up United Nations, did not turn to God.

And that pattern will continue until the 6th trumpet which is Islam against the world which happens during the first three and one half years which the Arab governments will go along with the nations but the people of Islam will rebel against the New Age Christ and the new age movement saying it is an insult to Islam for they are hindering from preaching Islam and saying there is no personal God which the world will devastate the Arabn nations with nuclear weapons.

After that war the world will still not repent of their sins and turn to God but they turn to the New Age Christ as the answer for peace on earth so God gives them the New Age Christ to rule over them and to deceive all people who do not love God and confess Jesus as Lord and Savior.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

When the pre-7 years resurrection does not happen it will overthrow the faith of some that believed it and they will end up following the new age movement.

The Bible says that Israel is blinded in part they acknowledge the Old Testament but not the New Testament and all Israel must come to the truth until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in which is when salvation is no longer available to the Gentiles and so all Israel shall be saved.

When the world takes the mark of the beast then the fulness of the Gentiles has come in and God will turn to Israel and turn them to the truth as a nation that Jesus is their Lord and Savior.

The Church should follow Jesus' instructions. He urged us to look for the signs of his coming.

Matt24:15
“So when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place”
(let the reader understand),

Mark 13:14 “When you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be” (let the reader understand),

Abomination of Desolation Dan 9:27

Paul agreed with Jesus

2 Thes 2:3
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of
lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Don't let anyone deceive you with pretrib philosophy.

Its amazing how otherwise intelligent people can fall for it. Goes to show you, when people are scared, they'll believe anything.

'Say it aint so Joe. Say it doesnt say in Revelation 16 in the middle of the vials that Jesus is STILL "coming like a thief" meaning he STILL HAS NOT arrived. But im sure once they read this they say its the second coming thief coming, even though they earlier said that the whole idea of a Thief in the night is that its a surprise with no signs before it. Well here we are in the middle of the vials in Revelation and it says Jesus is still gonna come like a thief.

Pray for pre
prepare for post
And any other time, like right now, would be fine by me

You have reversed the sequence of events, which means that you yourself have introduced the "killer flaw". The Bible is very clear:

1. God gives the Beast (the Antichrist, the Man of Sin) 3 1/2 years (42 months) to take total control of the earth and its inhabitants. This corresponds to the Tribulation.

2. During that time he not only sits in the temple of God claiming that he is God, but he also sets up the Abomination of Desolation (an animated image of himself within the Holy Place).

3. This triggers the Great Tribulation which lasts for less than 3 1/2 years, since the time has to be shortened.

4. Following this there comes a period of cataclysmic cosmic events corresponding to the 6th seal.

5. Then comes the Second Coming of Christ, at which time the Beast and the False Prophet are killed and cast into the Lake of Fire.

6. Following this Christ establishes His reign on earth for 1,000 years. This is a prelude to His eternal reign of earth.

And you can't disprove it -----All your doing is posting a scripture that tells you nothing about the Rapture --it tells you about the signs of the end ----

So you wrote a lot but really said nothing -----to disprove the Pre -trib Rapture ----

This is my quote from my post -----

it is all in the correct way you understand the scripture and apply common sense -----

Why would God keep His Saved people on the earth to be saved again -----that just makes no sense

Answer that question and give proof that all the saints will remain here during the Tribulation --and show me where in scripture in Revelations from Chapter 4 to 22 where the Church--Saints --- are mentioned and what role they play in the end times -----

Also not made popular until the 1970’s.

I think it was meant to be hippie fiction.

The reader understands that there will be many more living people left behind than taken up at the (pre-trib) Rapture. God will work with the many left-behind (many being traditional Jews.) It is they who need the instruction given in your verses. God is giving his Jewish people one last chance.

As for us:

Revelation 3:10
“Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”


1 Thessalonians 4:18
“Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”

The cause of speculation is the lack of good sound doctrine ... the bible has alot to say about it and many, many warnings and exhortations to stay alert and watchful. And not to be deceived.

Jesus said "after the tribulation of those days .... they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great glory and power and He shall send forth His angels to gather His elect from the four winds"

...Jesus was post trib.

I'm always amused by how pre-tribulites either go right out of scripture altogether to prove their case or they get tangled up in Revelations about which you can hardly get 2 christians to agree upon the interpretation of.

They by pass the clear and plain open scriptures of which there are adequate enough.

Nobody shall be looking for our Lord's coming more earnestly than the saints caught up in the great end-times persecution.

We look for the Lord's coming, we watch for the signs of His coming. The signs will be the Great Tribulation aka as the Great Persecution.