The offer of Salvation is universal, but the application is only : "by Faith".

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#421
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#421
Magenta said:
Forest believes even those who do not believe are saved.

I agree: he makes no sense.


He just did the same to me :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

John 12:37 - And if any man hear my words, and believeth not, I judge him not, for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. Jesus eternally saved the world of God's elect by redeeming them from their sins on the cross.

2 Tim 2:13 - If (we are in Christ and) we believe not, yet he abideth faithful, he cannot deny himself.

Salvation, according to Greek translation, means "a deliverance".

Believing in the things of the Spirit is not the cause that saves (delivers) us eternally, but is a product of those that have already been saved (delivered) and can save (deliver) his born again children many times, as we sojourn here on earth.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#424
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#424
oyster67 said:
Your Hyper Calvinistic hobbyhorse does not hunt. The atonement only avails those who choose to come to Jesus. It is a fact that God has foreknowledge. That simply means that He knows who will choose Him.
Click to expand...
The unregenerate person will not come to anything that is spiritual. What do you mean by the phrase "come to Jesus"?
 
Komentaja

Komentaja

Active member
#425
Jul 29, 2022
450
235
43
#425
Magenta said:
It is the very same word in every case, as shown in post #406 above. So you
are the one improperly reading and failing to grasp what is plainly written.
Click to expand...
You completely missed the point that i was joking. DIdnt this part reveal it:

"
See there you go. All you had to do was add something to the Bible and now the doctrine makes sense. The non-elect just dont get it

"
 
oyster67

oyster67

Senior Member
#426
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#426
Cameron143 said:
Just to be accurate, it doesn't say what God foreknew, but who He foreknew. The foreknowledge is of the person and not their choice.
I leave each person to make of this what they will, but we needn't change the scripture to suit our theology but our theology is subject to the scripture.
Click to expand...
Isaiah 46
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
 
oyster67

oyster67

Senior Member
#427
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#427
ForestGreenCook said:
What do you mean by the phrase "come to Jesus"?
Click to expand...
Isaiah 55:1
“Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.”
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#428
Mar 1, 2022
19,102
6,583
113
62
#428
oyster67 said:
Isaiah 46
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Click to expand...
Romans 8:29...For whom He did foreknow.....

This is what I was referring to. The subject was salvation and not the purpose and plan of God as Isaiah 46 refers to.
 
Evmur

Evmur

Well-known member
#429
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
113
London
christianchat.com
#429
ForestGreenCook said:
What I would like others to do, is to give book, chapter and verse with their comments.

Does he take away the sins of the following worlds?

John 14:17 - Even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him, but ye know him, for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 15:18 - 19, If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his mown, but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

John 16:20 - Verly, verly, I say unto you, that ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice, and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall turn into joy.

John 17:14 - I have given them the word, and the world hateth them.

1 John 2:15 - Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world, If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

There is world of wicked people, and there is a world of believers.

I have listed several scriptures that describe the world of the wicked, and here are a few scriptures that describe the world of believers;

1 John 2:2 - And he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 4:42 - We know that this is indeed the Christ. The Saviour of the world.
Click to expand...
The limitation is not in the atonement. We have all had our share in what you call the wicked world.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#431
Mar 1, 2022
19,102
6,583
113
62
#431
Evmur said:
The limitation is not in the atonement. We have all had our share in what you call the wicked world.
Click to expand...
His argument is for limited atonement based on limited love. The argument could better be made from Romans 9 which states...Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. How do you reconcile this? Also, if you would please explain on what basis God condemns people to hell if everyone's sins are no longer held against them. Thanks.
 
Evmur

Evmur

Well-known member
#432
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
113
London
christianchat.com
#432
ForestGreenCook said:
The unregenerate person will not come to anything that is spiritual. What do you mean by the phrase "come to Jesus"?
Click to expand...
But God draws us with cords of love. The particularity of redemption is in the act of God's drawing men to Christ.

Ultimately He draws ALL men unto the cross ... some unto salvation but some unto judgement. THAT is the doctrine of Particular Redemption or Electing love.

The cross which becomes a sweet fragrance of life for some is the foul stench of death to others.

This is a hard doctrine for many but it is true. Predestiny and election based upon God's foreknowledge. God simply knows who we are and where we are, He placed us in the womb.
 
oyster67

oyster67

Senior Member
#433
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#433
Evmur said:
God does not hate the world, the world hates God.
Click to expand...
Amen

John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
 
oyster67

oyster67

Senior Member
#435
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#435
Cameron143 said:
Also, if you would please explain on what basis God condemns people to hell if everyone's sins are no longer held against them. Thanks.
Click to expand...
John 3
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Our sin's will be held against us if we do not come to the Light.
 
Evmur

Evmur

Well-known member
#436
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
113
London
christianchat.com
#436
Cameron143 said:
His argument is for limited atonement based on limited love. The argument could better be made from Romans 9 which states...Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. How do you reconcile this? Also, if you would please explain on what basis God condemns people to hell if everyone's sins are no longer held against them. Thanks.
Click to expand...
First we must understand that all Romans 9 means is that God preferred Jacob over Esau for what? to be saved? no but to be the blessing of Abraham, the church, the people of God through whom God intended and does intend to bless the families of the earth.

Predestiny and election was never about salvation it has always been about being conformed to the image of God's Son. To be a people for the praise of God's glorious grace

To exclude everybody? no never, never. But that through US the lost and lonely might find their way to God. We are chosen [elect] to be a city set upon a hill ... not to exclude but to be a beacon of hope.

... others can still be saved.
 
oyster67

oyster67

Senior Member
#437
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#437
The Church is predestined for Heaven. It is up to us whether or not we will be in that number when the Saints go marching in.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#438
Mar 1, 2022
19,102
6,583
113
62
#438
Evmur said:
First we must understand that all Romans 9 means is that God preferred Jacob over Esau for what? to be saved? no but to be the blessing of Abraham, the church, the people of God through whom God intended and does intend to bless the families of the earth.

Predestiny and election was never about salvation it has always been about being conformed to the image of God's Son. To be a people for the praise of God's glorious grace

To exclude everybody? no never, never. But that through US the lost and lonely might find their way to God. We are chosen [elect] to be a city set upon a hill ... not to exclude but to be a beacon of hope.

... others can still be saved.
Click to expand...
I appreciate you taking the time to answer. I agree that the terms love and hate don't have the same emphasis we generally accord to them today but they clearly delineate 2 groups of people. And 1 group always represents those who are saved despite their obvious rebellion and the other never comes to a place of salvation.
How do you reconcile the potter and clay and the vessels of mercy and destruction?
 
oyster67

oyster67

Senior Member
#439
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#439
Cameron143 said:
His argument is for limited atonement based on limited love. The argument could better be made from Romans 9 which states...Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. How do you reconcile this? Also, if you would please explain on what basis God condemns people to hell if everyone's sins are no longer held against them. Thanks.
Click to expand...
This is a reference to the Old Testament. This shows us how God hates sin. God destroyed many people in the OT who opposed Jacob. The wicked nations of the OT are a picture of rebellion against God. God hates the Spirit of opposition and rebellion against Himself. We are fortunate to have the opportunity to come under the protection of Christ's Blood. The point is that God has made this salvation available to all. The fact still remains that all who despise Christ's sacrifice and neglect His call will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

Malachi 1:3 Context
1The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. 2I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 3And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. 4Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever. 5And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The LORD will be magnified from the border of Israel. 6A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?

God so loved the world that He gave His Son, but woe to those who neglect such great salvation.
 
oyster67

oyster67

Senior Member
#440
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#440
Cameron143 said:
How do you reconcile the potter and clay and the vessels of mercy and destruction?
Click to expand...
As we previously spoke of, God knows who will reject Him. He will use them to accomplish His will anyway.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.