Is faith a work?

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Mar 4, 2020
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Faith is the by product of Grace., true believers believe because of grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

And Grace here is another way of saying the New Birth.

But if you insist that you believed because of your own freewill apart from the Grace of the New Birth, its works.
What’s your take on comparing Acts 18:27 to Romans 5:1,2 and Ephesians 2:8,9 where grace is accessed through faith, not the other way around?

Romans 5:1,2
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

Ephesians 2:8,9
8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
 

awelight

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Aug 10, 2020
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Well I keep a healthy skepticism because I see there is a slippery slope here. If faith is a gift and the Bible proved it, I would probably immediately convert to Univeralism because I know God wants no one to perish and would provide a total path to salvation absent of any requirements because God is omnipotent.

I don’t really want to go down that road because of the labyrinth of theological and Biblical problems associated with it.

As it goes, the Bible does not in fact succinctly say faith is a gift anywhere. What I see is Jesus came and told people to believe, have faith, repent, etc. Why would Jesus need to come and say all of that and be sacrificed if God just needed to instead just speak whatever He wanted into existence?

I propose that Jesus fulfilled a legal requirement that enables death to be destroyed. Jesus died a sinless person and death received Him. Death cannot receive a sinless person because only sinners die. Therefore, death itself sinned and will be cast into the lake of fire. Now the resurrection to eternal life is legally possible and those who believe in Christ and what He did will have eternal life. Those who don’t will perish.
Thanks for responding. You touched upon many Doctrines in your reply. I would like to fly over a few of them because time and space will not allow a serious discussion on each.

You said:
As it goes, the Bible does not in fact succinctly say faith is a gift anywhere.

If we reject the view of many, who say otherwise, on Eph. 2:8 - then maybe. However, if you are looking for "succinctly" stated verses, then one must ask: Where is your succinctly stated verse, for the fact, that God is Triune? There isn't one. The Trinity of God, is developed by putting many verses together, which then and only then, are realized points of Doctrine. You do believe that God is Triune, do you not?

You said:
I would probably immediately convert to Univeralism because I know God wants no one to perish and would provide a total path to salvation absent of any requirements because God is omnipotent.

All I can say here is: Please don't. Universalism is an out right heresy. Questions: What makes you think God wants everyone to be saved? If that was His will, then everyone would be saved - He is God. Are you thinking of this verse?

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering toward you(us) not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. This verse speaks of the chosen of God - not all of mankind. Notice: He is longsuffering toward you - those that Peter is writing to because they were wondering what was taking the Lord so long to come again. The "all should come", of this verse, is the same as in John6:37, 39 and 44, as an example. Are you building a doctrine on one or two verses? Again, we must go back to the fact, that God chose before the foundation of the world those in Christ Jesus. That God Himself said, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." Where do you see Universalism in that?

This also touches upon the Doctrine of Particular Redemption. Perhaps one day we will discuss that.

You said:
What I see is Jesus came and told people to believe, have faith, repent, etc. Why would Jesus need to come and say all of that and be sacrificed if God just needed to instead just speak whatever He wanted into existence?

Jesus Christ had an earthly ministry for sure. The Great Shepherd of the sheep, had come in the flesh, to minister personally to His flock. However, this was not the reason for His first advent. The purpose of God was to secure redemption for the Elect. Since, God's Holy Character demanded legal payment for breaking His Holy Law. God could not demonstrate His mercy, unless His righteousness and justice was satisfied. Righteousness, speaks to God's Holy Nature and Justice speaks to the righteousness of His Nature and Moral Standard/Law. Since mankind had broken His Moral Standard through the disobedience of Adam, His Righteousness demanded death.

It was impossible for mankind to appease God's legal penalty. So even before God ever created anything, The Father devised a plan for a remnant to be saved. His only Son, the Second Person of the Godhead, would be incarnated in flesh and become the Lamb of God. Since God is perfect in everyway. only God could appease God's required perfection. But God the Son, as God, cannot die - so He took upon Himself sinless flesh. If Christ had not died, then all would be held guilty by God, the perfect Judge and all would be lost.

The second part of your question, would take a long, long time to answer. As such it would have to be taken in pieces step by step.
A short answer is this: Only God is Perfect and Holy in everyway but when God determined to Create - God could not and cannot create God. Therefore, God cannot create something or someone as Perfectly Holy as Himself. This is His essential Glory and His alone. Make sense so far? Thus, anything God creates is inherently LESS than Himself. Adam was created "Upright" (Ecc. 7:29), but Adam was NOT perfectly Holy. Adam proved that mankind could not keep God's Holy Standard. However, God knew this from before the beginning of His creative work. Thus, the Plan of Salvation and whom would participate in receiving His Judicial Mercy, was already determined.

Finally, "Death" is a condition of the Fall. (Read Genesis chapter 3). This condition killed Adam and Eve's spiritual ability to commune with God. Just as in "physical death", they were separated from God. This condition also will kill all physically - at God's appointed time. (Ecc. 3:2). It is not an entity. It is a sentence upon all mankind for not keeping the one Commandment of God. (Gen. 2:16&17). Death cannot sin. Only living... thinking beings can transgress and sin. Death was overcome by the sacrifice of the Lamb. It will be thrown into the lake of fire, at the end of time. Death can only affect that which is temporal. Once one, who is saved, steps into the eternal presents of the Lord, death has no power over them.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Faith is the by product of Grace., true believers believe because of grace Acts 18:27
No, sir. You are confused. Let's compare verses.

Acts 18:27 - When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia, the brothers and sisters encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. When he arrived, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed.

OK, you think "by grace had believed" supports your claim.

Now, my turn.

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

Boom!!

If faith is a "by-product" of grace, then EVERYONE would have believed.

But if you insist that you believed because of your own freewill apart from the Grace of the New Birth, its works.
I will insist on what the Bible insists on.

Rom 10:10 - For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Calvinism does not believe this verse. Or if they claim they do, they misunderstand what they think it says.
 
Oct 10, 2022
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What’s your take on comparing Acts 18:27 to Romans 5:1,2 and Ephesians 2:8,9 where grace is accessed through faith, not the other way around?

Romans 5:1,2
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

Ephesians 2:8,9
8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
It takes time to explain those verses, yet you dont even understand the things I have taken time to explain, like Believing is the by product of Grace as Per Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Until you can understand that, I see no reason to go into anymore explanations, its just labour you putting on me.
 
Oct 10, 2022
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No, sir. You are confused. Let's compare verses.

Acts 18:27 - When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia, the brothers and sisters encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. When he arrived, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed.

OK, you think "by grace had believed" supports your claim.

Now, my turn.

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

Boom!!

If faith is a "by-product" of grace, then EVERYONE would have believed.


I will insist on what the Bible insists on.

Rom 10:10 - For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Calvinism does not believe this verse. Or if they claim they do, they misunderstand what they think it says.
No Im not confused, people who believe, do so because of Grace Acts 18:27
27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

So I know that when I see that some believed, its because of grace:

Acts 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

Acts 4:4

Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

Acts 8:12

But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 9:24

And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.

Acts 11:17,23

Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord.


Acts 13:48

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Rom 4:3

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

1 Cor 3:5

Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

Eph 1:13

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

So all these scriptures that set forth that some believed, they did so because of Grace, the grace of regeneration.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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No Im not confused, people who believe, do so because of Grace Acts 18:27
27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

So I know that when I see that some believed, its because of grace:

Acts 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

Acts 4:4

Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

Acts 8:12

But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 9:24

And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.

Acts 11:17,23

Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord.

Acts 13:48

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Rom 4:3

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

1 Cor 3:5

Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

Eph 1:13

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

So all these scriptures that set forth that some believed, they did so because of Grace, the grace of regeneration.
Are you aware of Titus 2:11?

" For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people."

This is God's grace in action. It offers salvation to everyone. That is why people believe. God's grace offers it to people. And people believe from their heart. Rom 10:10, the verse that refutes your claims.

But not all people believe, obviously. Some resist the Holy Spirit. Acts 7:51.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Yet even within greek grammer the word that neuter can denote the whole process of Salvation by Grace through Faith as being the Gift of God.

Nothing of Salvation by Grace through Faith is of ourselves. Salvation is not of ourselves, Grace is not of us, Faith is not of ourselves, all the Gift of God.

But if we insist that faith is our part, then it defaults to salvation by works.
Exactly.

I didn't think this was that difficult.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Of course not. Jesus' answer to the works-mentality Jews was tongue-in-cheek.


Your condescension is pitiful. But if it makes you fee superior......


Did you even bother to see what the Jews actually asked Jesus in v.28?

v.28 - Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Do you understand this? They wanted to know what they MUST DO that "God requires" for eternal life. Their question was the SAME as the jailer asked Paul: "what MUST I DO to be saved?"

So, what does God require? That THEY believe on Christ. Kinda refutes your claims, doesn't it.


Sure it can. And the apostle Paul refutes you in Rom 10:10. Why can't you understand that?


You have it exactly backwards. Th "new heart" is a figure of speech for regeneration. You guys think that regeneration is necessary for someone to believe, but the Bible never says that.


Regeneration.


Oh, look again. Believers are "new creatures". So it ain't just a heart. We become new creatures. 2 Cor 5:17


Read your statement slowly and you will see it doesn't make sense.

The "work" that God requires is to believe. That comes from YOUR YOUR YOUR heart. Just as Rom 10:10 says.


Yeah, I think "weird" covers your confusion pretty well. The Bible doesn't say what you say.


Go to biblehub.com and see for yourself. Or go buy a Greek lexicon that includes the parsing. Then you'll see for yourself.
NOT the work that God "requires".

The work that God DOES.

You are changing the wording and meaning to try and fit your imagination. It won't work.


The Lord Jesus was just kidding...:ROFL: Wow. Now I've heard it all.


A Greek lexicon isn't needed for this in the slightest. All you have to do is read 3 verses and you understand the full meaning. Obviously the Greek has just confused you. You should probably throw it away and work on reading comprehension.
 
Oct 10, 2022
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FreeGrace2 said:
Why don't you believe Rom 10:10? Please explain.

All your posts indicate clearly that you believe that God is the Source of a person believing. Yet that verse says believing comes from man's heart.
Yes Gods Grace is the source of believing Acts 18:27, and I believe the Grace is the Grace of the New Birth
 
Oct 10, 2022
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Are you aware of Titus 2:11?

" For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people."

This is God's grace in action. It offers salvation to everyone. That is why people believe. God's grace offers it to people. And people believe from their heart. Rom 10:10, the verse that refutes your claims.

But not all people believe, obviously. Some resist the Holy Spirit. Acts 7:51.
Yeah I am aware of those scriptures, yet they do nothing against the fact that them who believe, believe because of Grace Acts 18:27
27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Grace here is the New Birth of the Spirit
 
Jan 31, 2021
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NOT the work that God "requires".

The work that God DOES.
I prefer what the Bible says, rather than what anyone else says.

John 6-
27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

See? That was the question of the crowd.

You are changing the wording and meaning to try and fit your imagination. It won't work.
What doesn't work is your kicking of the goads. Just accept what the Bible says.

The Lord Jesus was just kidding...:ROFL: Wow. Now I've heard it all.
So after telling me that I'm chaning the wording/meaning, you do it yourself. Hypocrite. I never said the Lord was kidding. He was using their own wording against them.

The Jews thought about salvation as something that they must work at or for. Jesus turned it around on them to get them to understand that the ONLY thing that man can to is to believe the promise.

A Greek lexicon isn't needed for this in the slightest. All you have to do is read 3 verses and you understand the full meaning. Obviously the Greek has just confused you. You should probably throw it away and work on reading comprehension.
Why don't you just read the Bible and believe what you read? I don't know who has been teaching you, but they get an F.
 

Ted01

Well-known member
May 14, 2022
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Sorry to butt-in here, but...
It seems to me that this thread has deteriorated into an argument of Semantics.

Whether we receive Grace by Faith or we receive Faith (to 1st believe) by Grace seems to me inconsequential
to how we proceed after the Event. Which comes first, imho, is simply unknowable.

The only remaining argument starts getting into Election/Predestination, which is another unknowable thing.

I encourage all people to stay away from vain arguments that try to understand the ways/mind of God. We just aren't
equipped to do that, and it merely causes division. Seek Peace and pursue it.

Go with your Faith, which is a Gift of God, that He has it all under control.

Peace to all...
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Sorry to butt-in here, but...
It seems to me that this thread has deteriorated into an argument of Semantics.

Whether we receive Grace by Faith or we receive Faith (to 1st believe) by Grace seems to me inconsequential
to how we proceed after the Event. Which comes first, imho, is simply unknowable.

The only remaining argument starts getting into Election/Predestination, which is another unknowable thing.

I encourage all people to stay away from vain arguments that try to understand the ways/mind of God. We just aren't
equipped to do that, and it merely causes division. Seek Peace and pursue it.

Go with your Faith, which is a Gift of God, that He has it all under control.

Peace to all...
I believe the Bible is clear about these things that you say are unknowable. God isn't like that, to give us His Word, yet make it unknowable.

The problem is that the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone (gullible believer) to devour. Seems he has devours quite a few.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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The only remaining argument starts getting into Election/Predestination, which is another unknowable thing.
It's in scripture, it can be known. Allow scripture, not man, to define.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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It takes time to explain those verses, yet you dont even understand the things I have taken time to explain, like Believing is the by product of Grace as Per Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Until you can understand that, I see no reason to go into anymore explanations, its just labour you putting on me.
I'm not trying to put labor on you, I'm asking because I don't understand. It's just a Bible discussion, but you're free to not discuss if you feel like it's labor.
 
Oct 12, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
Eph 2:8 gives the answer to that excellent question. We are saved by grace through faith.

Our faith is the means of salvation, and that by grace. Faith precedes salvation.

You are welcome. :)




As a noun, "faith" is what is believed. ie: my faith. So in that use, yes, God gives the faith, since what is believed is what is in the Bible.

The Bible is God's Word, and God has given mankind His Word. Those who believe what the Bible says has that faith.


When "faith" is used in the sense of believing, that comes from the heart, per Rom 10:10.

Calvinism claims that God is the Cause of man believing the gospel, usually on the basis of being chosen and then regenerated in order to permit the chosen one to believe. This is false and muddies the water on the whole issue.

If that were true, there would really be no need for evangelism, since God is said to have chosen who He would regenerate unconditionally before the world began.

I think that Romans 10:10 clears it all up. Man believes from his heart. How? God created mankind with a conscience, with which to be able to understand right and wrong and recognize that God exists as Creator and to recognize His divine attributes.

Rom 1:19-21
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

So mankind is without excuse.

Everyone has the ability to understand the gospel promise and to believe it. That is why Jesus Christ died for everyone. So what whosoever believes will not perish but have eternal life.
FreeGrace2 said:
Eph 2:8 gives the answer to that excellent question. We are saved by grace through faith.

Our faith is the means of salvation, and that by grace. Faith precedes salvation.

WillB said:
Will: Thanks for your response - appreciated.
FreeGrace2: You are welcome. :)

WB: So, faith comes first followed by salvation, right?

From where, or from whom, does faith come? Is faith something that a fallen corrupt sinner can work out intellectually entirely on his own? Or is faith a gift from God?

FreeGrace2: As a noun, "faith" is what is believed. ie: my faith. So in that use, yes, God gives the faith, since what is believed is what is in the Bible.

The Bible is God's Word, and God has given mankind His Word. Those who believe what the Bible says has that faith.

WB: Okay. So we both believe based on Scripture that faith is a gift from God.

If it is the latter does it not follow that God faith is accompanied simultaneously with salvation?
FreeGrace2: When "faith" is used in the sense of believing, that comes from the heart, per Rom 10:10.

WB: Can faith be used in any other way than believing? When I say, I have faith in the promises – yet future – made by Jesus Christ – in the past – I’m saying effectively that I believe Jesus Christ will keep those promises.

Is not that what you mean when you talk about faith and belief?

FreeGrace2: Calvinism claims that God is the Cause of man believing the gospel, usually on the basis of being chosen and then regenerated in order to permit the chosen one to believe. This is false and muddies the water on the whole issue.

WB: You have agreed that faith is a gift of God, right? Calvin says that faith is the gift of God, right? So, in what way is Calvin false and muddying the water on the issue?

FreeGrace2: If that were true, there would really be no need for evangelism, since God is said to have chosen who He would regenerate unconditionally before the world began.

WB: I should appreciate your response before addressing that point, okay?
(snip)
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
Eph 2:8 gives the answer to that excellent question. We are saved by grace through faith.

Our faith is the means of salvation, and that by grace. Faith precedes salvation.

WillB said:
Will: Thanks for your response - appreciated.
FreeGrace2: You are welcome. :)

WB: So, faith comes first followed by salvation, right?

From where, or from whom, does faith come? Is faith something that a fallen corrupt sinner can work out intellectually entirely on his own?
ROM 10:10 says man believes from his heart. So that's where faith comes from. Where does your trust in anything come from?

Or is faith a gift from God?
Eph 2:8 says that salvation is a gift from God.

FreeGrace2: As a noun, "faith" is what is believed. ie: my faith. So in that use, yes, God gives the faith, since what is believed is what is in the Bible.

The Bible is God's Word, and God has given mankind His Word. Those who believe what the Bible says has that faith.

WB: Okay. So we both believe based on Scripture that faith is a gift from God.
But Calvinists twist the idea into the action of believing comes from God.

WB: You have agreed that faith is a gift of God, right?
Depends on what is meant by "faith".

Calvin says that faith is the gift of God, right? So, in what way is Calvin false and muddying the water on the issue?
Calvinism believes that unregenerate man cannot believe the gospel, so God has to regenerate the man in order for man to believe. That is taught nowhere in the Bible.