Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

The blood of Jesus Christ is irrevocable.

However, there is a verse that says 'they overcame by the blood and by the word of their testimony', granted that is talking about saints who are beheaded in the great tribulation, but the principle is the same for all believers.

What those in the OSAS camp are saying is that there are two kinds of salvation, you have those who are saved and overcome -- they rule and reign with Christ and they share in the glory of Jesus Christ, and you also have those believers who are saved and don't overcome (Paul talked about those who are saved through fire and who suffer loss). I don't know that that interpretation is correct.

Instead I would argue that the foolish virgins suffered loss when they were locked out of the wedding feast, and the slothful servant suffered loss when his talent was given to the brother who had ten talents. I think being left behind at the rapture would be to suffer loss and that is where your whole Christian work would go up in flames. Being left on earth to go through the tribulation when everyone else is raptured would be the outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. At that point the path to salvation leads through the guillotine. But if you take that path then you will overcome, you will reign with Christ, you will share in His glory and your vessel will be filled with oil.

Look at the guillotine as the solution to your problem. Your problem was that your own head, your own mind was getting in the way of following Jesus and trusting in His word. So it is like the Lord's word that if your eye causes you to stumble pluck it out. In these cases it was their head that was causing the problem.

Salvation is a gift of God. Eph 2:8.

Rom 11:29 says that the gifts of God are irrevocable.

This is the issue with OSAS that I have, you can't take the Bible at face value, you have to explain everything away.

When Esau was born he was the firstborn and hence he had the inheritance from birth. However, his actions later in selling the birthright caused him to forfeit that inheritance. I don't buy the idea that there are two separate inheritances.

If you are a descendant of David and are supposed to rule and reign but are cut off from ruling and reigning that is very serious. It did happen so some, but Absalom and Adonijah were types of the antichrist.

This brings up the second issue I have with OSAS, when you dig down and finally get someone like yourself to actually discuss the verses you realize even if this is true (and it certainly may be) that there is nothing that Absalom, or Adonijah, or Esau can do to lose that inheritance from their birth, even if that is true, the fine print that they avoid at all costs is that what you are calling salvation could be horrible. It could be the "outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth".

The reason for this is how heavily you must emphasize two verses while deemphasizing and downplaying 30 or 40 other verses.

I do not subscribe to either camp, I don't believe the Bible teaches "once saved always saved" even if it does teach that once you are justified by the blood of Jesus that moment in time will never be taken away from you. I also don't believe the Bible teaches "elevator salvation".

I subscribe to the Jesus is Lord camp. I believe the Bible is the revelation of the savior, and that is where our focus should be. I believe that every true believer must take up their cross and follow Him. Either you will do it willingly or else you will be put into a situation where you have no other option but to either declare your faith in Him even though it means death or deny Him. I am disgusted with anyone who thinks "they are saved" and yet Jesus is not Lord and they tell you that straight up, they make me want to vomit. I am disgusted by those who pick and choose what Bible verses they will embrace, ignore or even discard. Jesus is the incarnated word of God, for Him to be Lord practically means the word of God is Lord.

Faith is a gift though. as Jesus said when they asked him what work they must do Jesus said it is the work of God that we believe in the one he sent.

John 6: 28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Faith is not something that that happens overnight, It takes alot of work from God in convicting us, Showing us who he is, SHowing us who we are in bringing us to our knees. Jesus said it himself. we must become poor in spirit to enter the kingdom of God. I think this passage is misleading, as when we think of poor in our sense we are not seeing the whole picture. The greek word used their is literally bankrupt. Empty, Homeless with nothing, Helpless, Lost with no hope.. That is what happened to the tax collector as he got on his knees unable to even look up in shame. He saw his hopeless bankrupt state in the eternal state and completely humbled himself. Jesus is saying that is what it takes. Pseudo faith or mere belief does not bring us to the state of being literally poor in spirit. It may start us on the process and allow God to start to work on us. But it is not saving faith. Sadly to many people stop t this pseudo faith state and never get complely humbled to the bankrupt state and are just playing church, they can play for years. But eventually they will expose the truth. they they were never of us, because although they believed, they never trusted completely they fell short of allowing God to bring them to their knees

Still others will also have that same pseudo belief, yet believe they need to add to this belief, they must stop sin, Be baptized, Church membership tithe, speak in tongues, many of these religious works based gospel are out there. where people are prevented from becoming bankrupt in spirit because they still think they can add to their salvation, to help God save them so to speak. an in the end, they have mere belief.. because they too, like the others resisted the work of God to bring them to their knees.

Thats why when people say we can lose faith I am shocked. We did not just come to it. God did a large work to bring us to that state. People who are brought to the knowledge they are bankrupt do not return to that bankrupt state, they do everything they can to keep that from happening. In order to "lose faith" they would have to wish to return to that state that God spent so much work bringing them too and deny they were even there.. That just does not happen


as for Judas, he was called the son of perdition. only one other person will have that name, and he is called the man of sin or antichrist in the last days. They both will go to their place..


He is talking about everyone who is there. not just the 12. and he called one of the 12 an unbeliever and one that will betray him (Judas)

Judas was a thief from the negining. You do not understand I believe, Judas did not think he needed saved, He followed Christ so he could be ther when Christ overthrew Rome and set up his kingdom. Once Judas realised Jesus was not going to do that. He plotted to turn him in for money, So he could at least get something out of him. so he betrayed him when satan entered him.

John 6 in context is jesus telling people not to search for food which perishes. but food which will ENDURE to eternal life.

He said one can eat this food. and they will never die

He said unlike manna, where you had to continually eat. whoever eats this food will never die. Live forever. Never hunger or thirst. have eternal life and be raised one he last day.

her also said what the food ws. the words, which through the spirit, he was speaking to them.

he made it clear. once we gnaw and chew on that word to the point we are placed into the state jesus promised. We will never die and live forever.

if salvation can be lost AFTER we eat of this food. and placed into this state, Jesus lied.

Ok, so what do you say then about those passages? Mat 24:13 and Rom 2:6 since it's not quoted above.

Also, if Calvinist OSAS was true, the Lord would have said: "He who is saved will perservere unto the end".
If Free Grace OSAS was true, the Lord would have said: "He who does not persevere will be saved, but only lose rewards".
But since neither of those/CS is true, the Lord in fact said: "He who perseveres to the end will be saved."

1 Cor 9:27 and Mat 18:32-35, among other passages like Heb 10:39, disagree with you. Quoting just the second here: "32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses."

Eternal Life refers to the Person of the Holy Spirit dwelling in you. Recall those verses in 1 Jn where it says no murderer has Eternal Life abiding in him, meaning the Holy Spirit abiding in him. The same Apostle says, that just as we have passed from death to life, by believing in Jesus Christ, we can pass from life to death by committing sins unto death like adultery, murder, apostasy etc. Recall that when David sinned by adultery/murder, he prayed: "Cast me not away from Your presence; take not Your Holy Spirit from me." by which inspired words, the Holy Ghost Himself shows us that it is possible.

You have to understand the context of those 2 verses. In the first verse, the Lord is preaching the Gospel to unbelieving Jews. He tells them that not by keeping the law, etc, but rather by believing in Him, i.e. by faith, they can be justified.

The second verse is in a different context. The Lord sees the Pharisees are refusing to believe He is God. They want to prevent His disciples from believing that too. And so, He says, His Sheep will hear His Voice, that He knows them, and they follow Him. And to such as these He gives TWO GIFTS, not just one, the Holy Spirit, i.e. Justification, and the Gift of Never Perishing, i.e. Final Perseverance in Grace. It is those who receive these two gifts who are not predestined not only to grace (justification) but also to final glory in Heaven (salvation). Also, your conflating the two is ultimately a non sequitur.

Take a secular example. Someone gives to group A a flight ticket as a gift. And to group B both a flight ticket and a first class ticket. Thus it therefore follow that all who have a flight ticket also fly first class? No, not at all. Likewise, it doesn't follow that all who receive eternal life (the Holy Spirit, by Grace through Faith, in Justification) also never perish. They alone never perish who do those 3 things mentioned by the Lord there. 2 Pet 1:5-11 confirms that when it says those who do things like e.g. add love, virtue, self-control etc to faith will never stumble, and in this way will confirm their election.

Answered above.

Answered above.

Answered above.

You rely largely on these 2 verses alone. In all the many OSAS threads in which we've discussed this so far, Free Grace, I think I've given nearly 20 verses why OSAS is not true. Jn 15, Heb 6, Heb 10, 1 Cor 9,2 Pet 2, Mat 18, Rom 11 etc. There are so many. Once you distinguish Perseverance and Justification (and both are Gifts, to be clear), there is no difficulty remaining.

God Bless.

I agree, but it says nothing about salvation being irrevocable: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God," Ephesians 2:8 I've noticed there seems to be some confusion on what the "gift of God" is. It's not a magical "zap" that turns a person into a kind of spiritual superhero. The gift of God is grace through the Lord Jesus. We can accept and continue in that gift through faith or we can fall away; in which case there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins (Hebrews 10:26).

Romans 11:29 doesn't say anything about salvation being irrevocable, but God's promises to Israel: "And so all Israel shall be saved, as it is written: 'The Deliverer shall come out of Zion, and He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.' As regards to the gospel, they are enemies for your sake; but as regards to election, they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Roman 11:26-29

This is talking about God's irrevocable promises made to the fathers.

In fact, earlier in the chapter it says we should be cautious or God will cut us off: "That is true. By unbelief they were broken off, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps He may not spare you either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God: upon those that fell, severity; but upon you, kindness, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also shall be cut off." Romans 11:20-22

Are there any other scriptures?

The OSAS crowd is saying that they will never end up in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

According to them the minute you turn, pray and receive the redemptive work of Jesus Christ your name is written in the book of life.

The problem I have with that is

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

What about those who have their names blotted out of the book of life? Yes, at one point their names were written in the book of life, but they didn't overcome. In order to overcome it is both the blood and the word of your testimony. So perhaps when you receive the redemptive work of Christ your name is written in the book of life. But you now need the word of your testimony, without that your name could be blotted out.

the gift of God is life, and the gift is irrevocable, romans 5-6-11

Romans 5: 15 But the gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

romans 6: 23 - the penalty of sin is death, the GIFT of God is eternal life

romans 11: 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

The one who believes will never die, but has eternal life

John 3:
4 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 4:
13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

john 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

John 6: 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes [j]in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is [k]food indeed, and My blood is [l]drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

The seal of the spirit

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee (plege) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

If salvation can be lost or forfiet. everyone of these passages are in error. And these are but a few..

I thought it was maybe Mat 18, but rereading Hebrews 10, now I think maybe the latter is the strongest disproof of OSAS in the Bible. Maybe I should start a poll asking non-OSASers which verse they vote for as the strongest rejection of OSAS!

Heb 10:

"
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; 33Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. 34For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. 35Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

All one has to do is really read the Bible for oneself, follow the Berean Method, ask the Holy Spirit for Divine Guidance, and it becomes clear.

Esau forfieted his earthly inheritance. But it was for Gods purpose. He chose to give the inheritance to Jacob. if you would actually study the passages and romans 9 you would see this

OSAS does not have to explain anything, we just take the word and promises of God at face value and learn to interpret them correctly

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

This word "without repentance" is used twice in the New Testament, the other place "godly sorrow works repentance unto salvation not to be repented of".

Some translate this as "not to be regretted" and some translate it as "irrevocable".

ASV = not repented of.

Amplified = irrevocable (God doesn't change His mind)

CEB = can't be taken back

DLNT = without regret

KJV = without repentance.

However, this does not say that salvation is irrevocable nor does it say that once your name is written in the book of life it can never be blotted out.

this is in error

we do not believe our name is written when we are saved, we believe everyones name is written. When someone dies having rejected the gift of life. their name is blotted out.

as for overcoming

1 John 5:4

For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Too much to digest. Can you post one or two that you feel are the best? Then we can go from there.

You do not speak for everyone, FreeGrace2 and everyone else on this thread has made that very clear.

2nd -- the word about having their name blotted out is written to the church in Sardis, and the condition for not having it blotted out is to overcome and that has two requirements: the Blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony.

This is Hilarious, Everlasting-Grace disagrees with this post? This was taken from the Blue letter Bible. So he disagrees with facts.

If one looks at the passage, He is talking about the gift to the children of Israel. God made a promise to them all the way back in Genesis. And he keeps his promise. he will not repent of that promise, hence it is irrevocable

Thats WHY they are beloved because of the election even though they are hated according to the gospel (which they as a nation at this time reject)

The greek words means unrepentable. unregreted. It means something that will not be changed.. IE, irrevocable

God will not cancel his promise, to the nation of Israel. or to his children.

Funny how you totally ignored the rest of the things I posted which support it.. typical or a worker

I am just telling you what EVERYONE I know who believes in eternal security believes in

You people come in and try to tell people what they believe when you have absolutely no idea what they believe, and contintu to prove it.

as for overcoming, I showed you how we overcome.. Faith and being MADE a child of God

God does not MAKE mistakes..

If faithfulness unto death were guaranteed, Jesus Christ would not command it. But in the Book of Revelation, He does.

Rev 2:10b: "Remain faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life."

This is not speaking just of eternal rewards, as some say. It is speaking of eternal life itself as the crown.

Rev 2:26: "To anyone who overcomes and perseveres in doing my works until the end, I will give authority over the nations"

Once more, not only to believe, but also to overcome, i.e. to persevere in God's Works until the end is needed to go to Heaven.

Study the Book of Revelation and you will see there are 7 Extraordinary Promises in it specially for those who overcome.

a blue letter bible is FACTS?

lol commentary is FACTS??

Eternal life is a gift. A crown is a reward.

the crown of life is a reward for remaining faithful in all things..