Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

FreeGrace2 said:
Obey what, exactly? Please be as specific as the Bible is on this subject.

That's hardly being specific. The ENTIRE Bible is the Word of God. Are you saying you have to obey consistently EVERY command found in the Bible?

Didn't you get the memo that the Jews weren't able to keep the Law?


This isn't about Abe getting saved. It's about Abe's progeny being blessed because he was obedient.


What covenant did you have in mind?


OK, spoken to Moses and the Jews. Are you Jewish?


How is that specific? Jesus gave many many commands. You probably can't even note them all.


Can you list ALL of them. You know, the ones by which we will be saved if we keep them?


Do yo seriously think that any human is able to be consistently obedient to all that you have noted? You are apparently not very familiar with the human condition.


Please explain specifically what it means to "obey the gospel". Can you do that?


OK, now be specific about how to "obey the truth".

Do you know what it means to be "specific". Apparently not. It means to explain the details.

Now, can you explain specifically how to obey all these commands you have noted?

The next question will be: have YOU obeyed all those commands consistently all your life?

If not, then specifically explain how many you have to obey and what percentage of consistency do you have to obey them.

Frankly, your system of salvation is VERY VERY complicated and IMPOSSIBLE to follow.

I will stick with the grace gospel of salvation since I know that I am totally unable to consistently obey a number of commands.

Thank you for this post, I have studied a little from Chuck Missler and Dr. Barnett and Pastor Armstrong about the apostasy, but it is so nice to see it laid out in such a concise manner like you have just done.

To me it is simple and I will share my experience the last two days. I heard from a brother they were in great need. However, I have other obligations and so my attitude is the Lord needs to speak to me. I gave this to the Lord and prayed that He would speak to me and that night He did. He spoke in several ways including with Bible references. So, since the Lord was giving the word I went to the bank and wired the money. I then got the mail and in the mail I learn that the amount of money I had just wired had been given to me by my retirement account being increased by a certain amount over the last three months.

I "laid out apostasy"?? Really?

Why didn't you answer my questions? Are you able to?


How does this answer any of my questions?

You made a claim obedience for salvation. But you have not been clear or specific. What you did was make general comments about various commands, but NOTHING SPECIFIC.

Are you able to list the specific commands that must be obeyed consistently in order to be saved, since that is your claim?

Your response here shows me that you know you can't list the commands needed for salvation.

Frankly, your system of salvation is VERY VERY complicated and IMPOSSIBLE to follow.

I will stick with the grace gospel of salvation since I know that I am totally unable to consistently obey a number of commands.

There are three legs upon which OSAS stands or falls. Do these verses mean what they supposedly mean, or have they been misunderstood and misapplied? When we examine them next to other scriptures that clearly contradict them will they hold up? Let's see.

First, 1 John 2:19—"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

The OSAS interpretation of this verse says that those who "went out" were never in Christ to begin with; they were never saved. However, I suggest there's another meaning that conforms very well with other scriptures. This view says that those who "went out" were indeed saved and in Christ at one point, but were simply not as committed as the others. It's in this sense that they were not "of us." These are those spoken of in the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:5-6): "Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away." It sprang up, it had life to start with; but it "withered away."

Jesus' explanation of this passage is found in Matthew 13:20-21—"As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away."

Second is 1 John 3:6—"No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him."

This seems pretty cut and dried: if someone turns away back into sin they never knew Him. But we have to understand this in light of other scriptures that contradict it. Those who "never knew Him," never had a proper understanding of Him. This corresponds to the first group in the parable of the sower: "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart." The seed was "sown in his heart," but was snatched away because of this person's lack of understanding.

Third is John 10:28—"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." I agree with this verse: no one can indeed snatch them out of His hand. However, the person himself can walk away. For this reason I prefer the phrase "forfeit salvation" to "lose salvation."

Now let's look at some scriptures that plainly talk about walking away and falling away. I'm not going to use Hebrews because Hebrews is fiercely objected to by those who advocate OSAS, even though is has many relevant warnings about falling away. But Hebrews isn't necessary—there are plenty of others.

2 Peter 2:20-21—"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them."

This passage clearly illustrates a person who was once in Christ but who turned their back on Him. This shows a conscious action on the part of the one turning back. These verses correspond with Luke 9:26: "Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Matthew 24:10—"And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another."

1 Timothy 4:1—"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons."

Matthew 24:13—"But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

Why say that those who endure to the end will be saved? If one cannot forfeit their salvation, why didn't He say "But all who have prayed the sinners prayer will be saved?"

Luke 9:26—"Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Already mentioned, Luke 9:26 is a clear warning from the Lord about falling away.

Them.....they......depart.....fall away......turn back.....

Not saved.

Us....we...ye/you/......the saved who stay that way. Eternally.

We have a free will, even after coming to the Lord we have a free will just as Judas did. Dogs can return to their vomit if they wish, a washed sow can return to wallowing in the mire if it wishes.

Judas was never saved

Them.....they......depart.....fall away......turn back.....

Not saved.

Us....we...ye/you/......the saved who stay that way. Eternally.

Do you believe murders, those who hate, have eternal life remaining in them?

Yes, and apart from Jesus who knew that prior to his betraying Jesus?

Judas knew

We have a free will, even after coming to the Lord we have a free will just as Judas did. Dogs can return to their vomit if they wish, a washed sow can return to wallowing in the mire if it wishes.

OK, so the false prophet knew he was a false prophet. That seems to contradict the Lord's word

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Judas was never saved, Jesus called him an unbeliever in John 6..

A dog returns to his vomit because he is still a dog. He was never created into a new creature

a dog is not saved, never has been

This is the whole issue with your doctrine. Once you are saved you are always saved unless it later turns out that you aren't saved in which case you were never saved. So what is the point? Even the false prophets do not realize they are false prophets. The point of the verse in Matthew 7 is not that they were once saved but that they thought they were saved and they thought they were doing the Lord's work.

You can't look at a person and know they are saved, the apostles didn't know that Judas was a false prophet.

So others are deceived, and even the false prophets are deceived. Which is what Paul says when he says that they deceive others and are deceived themselves.

A dog returns to his vomit because he is still a dog. He was never created into a new creature

a dog is not saved, never has been

The point is that we have a free will. That is why the Bible tells us to obey. Obey the truth, obey the gospel, obey the fellowship of the apostles. We have a free will and we can choose to obey or not to obey.

This is the whole issue with your doctrine. Once you are saved you are always saved unless it later turns out that you aren't saved in which case you were never saved. So what is the point? Even the false prophets do not realize they are false prophets. The point of the verse in Matthew 7 is not that they were once saved but that they thought they were saved and they thought they were doing the Lord's work.

You can't look at a person and know they are saved, the apostles didn't know that Judas was a false prophet.

So others are deceived, and even the false prophets are deceived. Which is what Paul says when he says that they deceive others and are deceived themselves.

2Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

What does faith say?
Does faith say that the Lord Jesus will save a person and then keep them in His Hand?
Or, does faith say that Our Sovereign God will draw someone to come to Christ to be saved and then
later determine, because of whatever reasons, that Salvation was a mistake and let that person fall away?

One is faith and the other is complete lack of faith and lack of understanding of who God Is and what He Does.

OK, so the false prophet knew he was a false prophet. That seems to contradict the Lord's word

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.