Poll of polls on the longest running debate:

the issue is your trust in is Christ. and his work.

If you then say you can lose faith (lose salvation) your faith is not really in Christ. its in your ability to continue in the faith.

which is contradictory..

Are there any parables that support this?

Lol

we are saved by grace

if it is grace it is no longer of works

those who are saved have eternal life

you are trying to preach conditional life.

there is no initial justification, we are either justified or we are not.

i told you already, those passages are descriptive, not prescriptive. IE, Gods people DO WORKS because they are saved, Not to get saved.

Where is this written?

Are there any parables that support this?

Many places. Here is one. In Jn 10:27-30, Jesus Christ explains those who do three things, (1) hear His Voice, i.e. listen to His Teaching, (2) He knows them, and they know Him, i.e. they have continual communion and fellowship with Him, and (3) follow Him, (which includes, as He said, in Mat 16:24, denying oneself, and taking up our Cross, to do so: "Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.") will not be plucked out of His hand, which means they will not fall away. OSASers think this applies to all the justified, but it actually only applies to the justified who do those three things the Lord mentions. It is those who never fall away. It is those who are never snatched out of His hand.

Jn 10: 27My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30I and My Father are one.”

And in 2 Pet 1:5-11, the Apostle says "if we do these things, we will never stumble". He explains, adding love etc to faith.

2 Pet 1:5 "But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

I feel that in Christianity today there is but little emphasis on the cost of discipleship. We want "easy believism", as it is called. It's great to believe Jesus Christ is Our Lord and Savior. I do. After that, we should love Him, strive to keep His Teaching, and grow in His grace, by prayer, by receiving holy Communion, fellowshipping with other believers, reading the Word, doing good works etc. That's what the above passages encourage, and if we do this, we will not stumble, as they say.

PennEd, will answer your post subsequently.

God Bless.

Many places. Here is one. In Jn 10:27-30, Jesus Christ explains those who do three things, (1) hear His Voice, i.e. listen to His Teaching, (2) He knows them, and they know Him, i.e. they have continual communion and fellowship with Him, and (3) follow Him, (which includes, as He said, in Mat 16:24, denying oneself, and taking up our Cross, to do so: "Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.") will not be plucked out of His hand, which means they will not fall away. OSASers think this applies to all the justified, but it actually only applies to the justified who do those three things the Lord mentions. It is those who never fall away. It is those who are never snatched out of His hand.

Jn 10: 27My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30I and My Father are one.”

And in 2 Pet 1:5-11, the Apostle says "if we do these things, we will never stumble". He explains, adding love etc to faith.

2 Pet 1:5 "But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

I feel that in Christianity today there is but little emphasis on the cost of discipleship. We want "easy believism", as it is called. It's great to believe Jesus Christ is Our Lord and Savior. I do. After that, we should love Him, strive to keep His Teaching, and grow in His grace, by prayer, by receiving holy Communion, fellowshipping with other believers, reading the Word, doing good works etc. That's what the above passages encourage, and if we do this, we will not stumble, as they say.

PennEd, will answer your post subsequently.

God Bless.

This is complete and utter reliance on YOUR deeds and works.

It is offensive to God, who saw His Son so upset with what was about to happen to Him, that He sweat Blood, in asking Him if there was ANY other way.
There was NO other way.

Imagine how outraged God is when someone thinks they can do something to attain or maintain that for which His Son paid for so dearly.

I don’t see any correlation between the verses you’ve shared and “perseverance is a grace God gives later on”.

Again, what is your understanding of this passage?

This is complete and utter reliance on YOUR deeds and works.

It is offensive to God, who saw His Son so upset with what was about to happen to Him, that He sweat Blood, in asking Him if there was ANY other way.
There was NO other way.

Imagine how outraged God is when someone thinks they can do something to attain or maintain that for which His Son paid for so dearly.

Salvation is indeed a FREE GIFT!

how many times have we gotten FREE CHRISTMAS GIFTS and either have returned them for money, something else, or just hid it out of sight never to use/wear it?

a person has the same right to do that with Salvation. they can give it back, refuse to accept it after awhile, pretend it never happened and live like they did before.

not sure why this is so difficult for the ultimate Grace pushers to accept.

maybe they need to be reminded that Denial [[is not]] a River that runs through Egypt!

I cited 5 Scripture passages above. You didn't quote and exegete even one. No, it is not reliance on myself. It is reliance on the Holy Spirit within me to to bear the fruit Christ wants me to bear. Please explain how you understand John 15.

Also, is this what you are calling "complete and utter reliance on yourself"?

"2 Pet 1:5 "But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

I didn't say it. The Word of God said it. Again, what is your understanding of this passage?

The whole book of Galatians is about whether or not they were saved after salvation and Paul had doubts they were saved. When you stop believing the cross you lose your salvation. Now we shouldn't judge those who believe the cross. If you believe the cross I'm not going to say you're lost.

You may say whatever you want about my faith: but you won't change what I know:

I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able and keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.

And I know that because of God's grace and love in my heart! It has everything to do with God, and nothing to do with OSAS.

Jude 1:24
Now all glory to God, who is able to keep you from falling away and will bring you with great joy into His glorious presence without a single fault...

Re: bolded. Are you sure about that? Here are three passages that indicate otherwise.

Mat 18: "27Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt ... 32Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him."

What happened here? He was forgiven (justified) to begin with, yet not finally saved, because of his unforgiveness toward a fellow servant, as the parable makes clear. So it is clear that forgiveness/justification is not the same as final salvation.

Other verses:

Luk 8:11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience."

Here, we see 4 categories. (1) those who never believe the Word. (2) those who at first receive the Word with joy, believe for a while but then in time of temptation fall away. This itself suggests OSAS is wrong. (3) Then some believe but are choked with cares, riches and pleasures of life and yield no lasting fruit to maturity. (4) And others heard the Word with a good and noble heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. This is how the Lord explains the Gospel. Do you agree with Him?

The final passage is from John 15:

1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He [a]takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

Mostly self-explanatory. He says they are already clean, which means already justified. He then tells them to abide in Him continually, so that they can bear fruit. Next, He says, if someone does not abide in Him, He can be cast out as a branch.

All these passages, and many more, argue against OSAS.