Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

Paul calls it "the glory to be revealed and the manifestation of the sons of God"

Not only will we be changed but the creation itself is to be set FREE from it's bondage to decay.

How differently Paul speaks about the coming of the Lord to the Jerusalem crowd who speak about loud bangs and fervent heat to the melting away of the elements. Those things will happen at the end of the 1, 000 years, the second resurrection and judgement.

Only Paul understood that Israel was to be diminished and set aside during the gospel age, only Paul understood the rapture.

The Jerusalem crowd thought the kingdom had begun, Paul knew it was to be delayed.

Not many seem to understand this - it is nice to see when someone does...

Here is the point; at the Second Advent, when Jesus comes back to earth for the MK, both all the dead saints and all the living saints will receive GLORIFIED BODIES. Do you agree or not?

If you disagree, when does the Bible say the living believers will receive theirs?

When I speak of "resurrection" I have to assume Christian readers are well aware of the fact that Paul taught that both the dead and living believers will receive glorified bodies.

1 Thess 4-
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1 Cor 15-
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. This means the dead AND living.

So, when I say "resurrection" I am including all the dead and all the living believers.

I know you are asking TDW - but, for what it is worth - I agree with this.

Nice to know; however, in the strictest of technical senses, you are incorrect - at least, according to the 'traditional' manner of discussing the topic.

Just be aware that your definition "goes against the grain" of most people's idea of what 'resurrection' means - with regard to the Second Coming of Christ.

Albeit, I personally understand what you are saying...

"Timing is everything..."

Please be patient.

I'm not sure if you are saying that our "mortal bodies" (by your use of the word "dies") means that our "mortal bodies" will be lying around on the ground/wherever ("dead") once the "change" occurs, and we are then "caught up" [/snatched]... to the meeting of the Lord in the air.

Is this what you are intending to convey by the phrase "the mortal body dies as the 'change' is occurring"? Just wondering.







Phil3:21 -

Berean Standard Bible
who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body.

Berean Literal Bible
who will transform our body of humiliation, conformed to the body of His glory, according to the working enabling Him even to subdue all things to Himself.

King James Bible
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.




In 2Cor5, the word "unclothed" refers to when a believer's mortal body DIES (what 1Cor15 refers to as "this corruptible"--re: the DEAD in Christ" component of "the Church which is His body");
whereas the word "clothed upon" refers to when a believer's mortal body (i.e. still-living body--the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" component of "the Church which is His body"--"this mortal" in 1Cor15) is immediately "clothed upon" with our glorified body APART from having to DIE first...2Cor5:4 speaks of "so that mortality [the 'still-living' component of the Church which is His body] might be swallowed up OF LIFE" (no "death" occurred... but a "change" did... in fact, it was "transformed"... by His POWER ^ );

Paul's point here being that no one "LONGS" / is "EARNESTLY DESIRING" to DIE...
(be "unclothed"--apart from a body, for a time... until the rapture point in time, at which time "the DEAD in Christ SHALL RISE [be resurrected from the dead] FIRST" before we're "caught up together with" them--with "changed" bodies),
...though we are "WILLING" for that, if God so wills that we DIE prior to that point in time (when the "change" and rapture occurs).

What we are "EARNESTLY DESIRING" is to be "clothed upon" (that is, immediately "clothed upon" with our glorified bodies APART from having to DIE first--which occurs at "our Rapture" time-slot, of course);

2Cor5, though also covering the fact that those of us who DIE beforehand will indeed "be at home with the Lord" (awaiting the "shall RISE first" thing, about being "resurrected" bodily from the graves, i.e. "to stand again" on the earth), is primarily about what will occur are the time that the "still-living" component (i.e. "THIS mortal" or "mortality"--still ALIVE ones) of "the Church which is His body" is "changed / transformed / swallowed up OF LIFE" ("THIS mortal must PUT ON immortality"... and "CLOTHED UPON" means there's no shedding of a "mortal body," like, laying around on the ground, left behind to rot or for the birds to feast on [not sure if that's even what you meant, by the way ]... esp. because of what Phil3:21 says too: "shall transform our body of humiliation conformed to..." means, that very body "changed" / "glorified").






[by the way, for the readers, "THIS corruptible" and "THIS mortal" (1Cor15) speaks specifically to/for/about "the Church which is His body"--at "our Rapture" time-slot--It is not referencing (in this context) the saints who will be resurrected ('to stand again' on the earth) at the time-slot of His Second Coming to the earth Rev19 (OT saints; and Trib saints who will have died in the Trib yrs), nor those saints who will ENTER the MK age as "still-living" ones (many passages in the Gospels covering THESE persons/saints), who will be the ONLY ones with the capacity of reproducing / bearing children during the MK age; note: ALL saints who had previously DIED will be resurrected IN TIME FOR / BY THE TIME OF and TO BE PRESENT FOR the commencement of the MK age (aka "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER"... which [passages covering this] takes up the next scene in the chronology, when He "RETURNS" to the earth Rev19 ("when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" Lk12, THEN "the MEAL [G347]"/aka earthly MK age), and WE / "the BRIDE / WIFE [singular]" return "WITH [G4862-UNIONed-with] Him"/"shall APPEAR WITH [G4862] Him in GLORY"... but there are at that time "saints" still existing on the earth upon His RETURN there, who NEVER LIFT OFF the earth (they are not promised the "SNATCH / RAPTURE / CAUGHT UP" thing)]

^ P.S. one more thing... Peter, when speaking of his approaching DEATH, stated the following:


King James Bible
"Knowing that shortly I must put off [/the putting off [G595] of] this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me."

-- https://biblehub.com/text/2_peter/1-14.htm





[there's no such reference to this ^ regarding the "still-living" members of the Church which is His body ("THIS mortal" / "mortality") at the time-slot of our "change"/ glorification, and "our Rapture"]

FreeGrace2 said:
So, when I say "resurrection" I am including all the dead and all the living believers.


That is because the generally held belief is that the "rapture" of living believers occurs 7 yrars earlier just before the Tribulation begins.

It almost seems as if they don't even think about the "resurrection". Just the "rapture".

How sad.

Do you mean, "be patient, grasshopper"?

Of course we think about it and acknowledge it.

We're continually pointing out the fact that the text itself states, "the dead in Christ SHALL RISE first"--that means "be resurrected [i.e. 'to stand again'... on the earth... after having physically DIED--that's what that means, and we certainly DO acknowledge that fact!]




But that applies to "the DEAD in Christ" (the ones who need to be bodily "RESURRECTED" from the dead--not the "still-living" ones, see ; ) )

^ "Behold, I SHEW you A MYSTERY, WE [/the Church which is His body] shall NOT ALL SLEEP..."




["a mystery"... something not having been previously disclosed, NOW BEING disclosed...]

"clothed upon [G1902]" (2Cor5:2,4... the one that's APART from having to DIE first [which is the "unclothed" word])


[quoting from BibleHub]

Strong's Concordance
ependuomai: to have on over
Original Word: ἐπενδύομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: ependuomai
Phonetic Spelling: (ep-en-doo'-om-ahee)
Definition: to have on over
Usage: I have on over (as a garment); mid: I put on myself in addition.

OK, fine. But too many simply talk about the "rapture".

For me, it doesn't matter. The texts are quite clear; at THE resurrection, both the dead and living believers will receive their glorified body. That is the whole point.

Oh, no - nothing like that - just that I have to "get around to it"...

I used to have a round tuit, but I can't remember where I put it.

Yes, so YOU have it!!