Poll of polls on the longest running debate:

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Are we eternally saved once we are "Born Again"?

  • Yes. We are eternally saved, sealed by the Holy Spirit, and ONLY Jesus keeps us saved.

    Votes: 25 64.1%

  • We are only eternally saved upon physical death, and been judged that we followed Jesus totally.

    Votes: 1 2.6%

  • No. we can lose Salvation by leaving the faith or by committing sins.

    Votes: 15 38.5%

  • No. Not if we fail to forgive others or don't show discernable works.

    Votes: 1 2.6%

  • No one can know until after their physical life is over.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    39
ResidentAlien

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
#181
Apr 21, 2021
8,272
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#181
"Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown." 1 Corinthians 9:24-25

Maybe I shouldn't run after all. Wouldn't that be a work? I should probably ignore this passage. After all, I have my fire insurance, why bother.
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#182
Apr 22, 2013
13,578
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#182
SomeDisciple said:
What do you think it means to "escape the pollutions of the world" then?
Click to expand...
A fair question.

Notice verse 20 here of 2 Peter:
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Now notice Jesus referring to the same type people:
Matthew 12:43-45
An Unclean Spirit Returns
43 “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44 Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.”

You see, this man is clean. His "temple" (body), is swept and EMPTY.

You can also like these people to the 2nd soil where they had NO ROOT IN THEMSELVES.

All these people are the same. they were cleansed, they escaped the pollutions of this world by the hearing of the Word, BUT THEY DIDN'T HAVE SAVING FAITH, AND WERE NOT BORN AGAIN, FILLED AND SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT!

As OPPOSED to these guys:
1 Corinthians 6
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

They were not only cleansed. They were justified, sanctified, and had the Holy Spirit.

So we see that it is not enough to merely give intellectual accent to the Gospel. We must completely believe it and receive Him.

The Prodigal son never for a moment disbelieved that his father wasn't who he said he was. He just believed HE was no longer worthy to be his son. And we all know nothing could have been further from the truth. He was ALWAYS his father's son.

Hope this helps.
 
The_Watchers_2017

The_Watchers_2017

Banned
#183
Jun 20, 2022
6,460
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#183
PennEd said:
Nope. Nowhere does Peter say these dogs and pigs are saved. YOU inserted that.

What Peter DOES say is that they had KNOWLEDGE of Jesus, and the Gospel.

But if want to believe you can become a dog or a pig, knock yourself out.

As for me and my family, we’ll forever remain His sheep.
Click to expand...
Peter said those who were Saved returned back to their old sinful ways. turning back made them no longer Saved. but they were once Saved and returned back to their Sins and became unSaved.
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#184
Apr 22, 2013
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#184
The_Watchers_2017 said:
Peter said those who were Saved returned back to their old sinful ways. turning back made them no longer Saved. but they were once Saved and returned back to their Sins and became unSaved.
Click to expand...
Peter doesn’t say they were saved at all.

Not sure where you got that from. But nowhere does Peter say these people are saved.
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#185
Dec 18, 2021
5,884
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#185
The_Watchers_2017 said:
in 1930 90% of Americans believed in God
according to Research Polls, TODAY, only 40% truly believe God is Real.

are you truly so BLIND by your False Doctrine that even true factual Evidence is not enough to WAKE YOU UP?
Click to expand...
you just proved me right’

Thank you

wake me up? I am not the one who need to wake up my friend.
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#186
Dec 18, 2021
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#186
The_Watchers_2017 said:
i have never said God removes your Salvation but you can walk away from it.

DO YOU NOT EVEN READ WHAT I SAY BEFORE ACTUALLY REPLYING BACK WITH THE EXACT WORDS I HAVE BEEN ALREADY SAYING?
Click to expand...
you can;t walk away from salvation

God has to take it away

I heard you loud and clear YOUR WRONG.
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#187
Dec 18, 2021
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#187
The_Watchers_2017 said:
WE ALL UNDERSTAND THROUGH KNOWLEDGE!

wow, you really are so caught up that you will take a portion of Scripture and twist it into your viewpoint. unbelievable!
Click to expand...
IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT YOU UNDERSTAND, IT MATTERS WHAT YOU DO WITH THAT KNOWLEDGE. NO ONE WQS EVER SAVED BECAUSE THEY KNOW

YOU WANT TO YELL IN BOLD I CAN YELL BACK MY FRIEND.
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#188
Dec 18, 2021
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#188
SomeDisciple said:
He said they went out from us but were NOT of us.

Yep, and not only that- it says they escaped the pollutions of the world; so I'm pretty sure that means they had a little more than head-knowledge. Just knowing the story of Jesus' crucifixion will not escape you from the pollutions of the world, you have to go farther than that.
Click to expand...
How can you go out from us unless you were with us.

A person who VISITS does not go out from us..
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#189
Dec 18, 2021
5,884
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#189
SomeDisciple said:
What do you think it means to "escape the pollutions of the world" then?
Click to expand...
Judas escaped the polution. Yet he was never saved. He walked with the savior yet never had faith in him

Many escape the polution by just going to church and being around Gods people. It does not mean they have ever been saved
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#190
Dec 18, 2021
5,884
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#190
ResidentAlien said:
"Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown." 1 Corinthians 9:24-25

Maybe I shouldn't run after all. Wouldn't that be a work? I should probably ignore this passage. After all, I have my fire insurance, why bother.
Click to expand...
You don’t run to get saved.

You run to get a reward or wage.

Salvation is a gift, it can not be earned
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#191
Dec 18, 2021
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#191
The_Watchers_2017 said:
Peter said those who were Saved returned back to their old sinful ways. turning back made them no longer Saved. but they were once Saved and returned back to their Sins and became unSaved.
Click to expand...
Peter said no such thing

A dog returns to his vomit because he is a dog.

A dog who was saved is no longer a dog, he is a sheep.
 
SomeDisciple

SomeDisciple

Well-known member
#194
Jul 4, 2021
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#194
PennEd said:
Now notice Jesus referring to the same type people:
Click to expand...
I kinda see the parallel you made there; I suppose there is a parallel; but that "the pollutions of the world" are the same as demon posession, Idk about that. Pollution/corruption/defilement people have on their own without unclean spirits.
PennEd said:
The Prodigal son never for a moment disbelieved that his father wasn't who he said he was. He just believed HE was no longer worthy to be his son. And we all know nothing could have been further from the truth. He was ALWAYS his father's son.
Click to expand...
Oh, I agree- the prodigal son is very distinct from an apostate... although I will note the prodigal son had be issued new garments and a ring when he returned: the significance of which I will leave others to explore.
Everlasting-Grace said:
How can you go out from us unless you were with us.

A person who VISITS does not go out from us..
Click to expand...
Yet when I read it again, it still says "They went out from us, but they were not of us". Regardless, like I said, he's talking about these false teachers, and it's not about apostasy, or a principle about apostasy: he's talking about something that happened.
Everlasting-Grace said:
Judas escaped the polution.
Click to expand...
That seems speculative: although, I will say, after reading the chapter for context "maybe", mainly because this chapter is also about false teachers: in this case they may or may not have been false teachers who were also apostate. Peter does say the sow that is washed goes back to wallowing in the mud. And that word rendered "pollution" is corruption/defilement as well... I don't think you really escape the defilement of the world until it is washed away from within you by the blood of Jesus.
 
The_Watchers_2017

The_Watchers_2017

Banned
#195
Jun 20, 2022
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#195
Christians ABANDONING Christ:
Galatians 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly turning away from the One who called you by the grace of Messiah, to a different “good news”

^
Proof people rejected Christ after Accepting Him found in Paul's Letters.


1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Ruach clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, following deceitful spirits and teachings of demons
2 through the hypocrisy of false speakers—whose own conscience has been seared.

^
Notice, this is not about the CHURCH but about BELIEVERS/PEOPLE that have been Saved Falling Away.


Hebrews 10:29 How much more severe do you think the punishment will be for the one who has trampled Elohim underfoot, and has regarded as unholy the blood of the covenant by which he was made holy, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

^
Saved People who later trample God and regard the Blood Sacrifice as unholy + insults the Spirit of Grace = more severe punishment



Example after example of BELIEVERS walking away from Salvation and being Eternally Punished for it.

where's the LYING Doctrine of Eternal Salvation found within these FOUR Verses at?
 
I

Inquisitor

Well-known member
#196
Mar 17, 2022
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#196
SomeDisciple said:
By your reckoning... which is without scriptural basis, or even sound reasoning. You certainly aren't going to be saved if your faith doesn't endure, and we would not be told to endure if we had no part in it, even if your faith enduring is... by faith.

It doesn't say they professed to believe, or that they were part of the church. It says their departure (not apostasia)made it clear they were not believers. You can be with a teacher of the gospel for some time, learning the doctrines and beliefs of the church before you decide you don't believe and "go out from them". If you depart from there, and go around to other churches denying Jesus trying to deceive people, guess what- that will reveal you didn't believe what they taught.

Not every apostate goes out from the church, though. and they don't all openly deny Jesus, and they don't necessarily go around as false teachers either. That is what these anti-christs were doing. You can see that is what he is talking about and not people that simply left the faith and went about minding their own business.

Again, it's not a blanket statement. Even if someone who leaves the faith is an anti-christ: that's not what verse 19 is about. It's about specific people that were going around to deceive the church. THOSE people went out from the church (a physical departure not "apostasia"). THEIR departure made it clear they did not believe. That's all it says. He is talking about something that actually happened, he's not making a principle out of it.

There's nowhere in the bible where the apostles are like "HEY GUYS DON'T CONCERN YOURSELF ABOUT BELIEVEING IN JESUS, REMAINING IN CHRIST, DOING GOOD WORKS, WE DON'T HAVE TO DO THAT! GOD DOES IT FOR YOU. Its not there.
Click to expand...
Your trying to establish the idea that anyone who falls away from the faith. Never believed in the first instance.

Luke 8:13
Those on the rocky soil are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and yet these do not have a firm root; they believe for a while, and in a time of temptation they fall away.

The scripture does say they believe for a while.
 
ResidentAlien

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
#197
Apr 21, 2021
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#197
2 Peter 2 doesn't mention being "born again," but looking at the whole chapter I think a good case can be made that those mentioned in 2:20 had previously made a commitment to follow Christ but late forsook Him.

These were false teachers who arose "amomg them" (v. 1). They were part of the congregation.

v. 15 says "forsaking the right way they have gone astray." You can't forsake something you never had in the first place. They apparently started on the right way but then abandoned it.

Then the final piece of the puzzle comes in v. 20: "For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning."

To me this raises questions of what it means to be "born again." Is it a mystical rebirth like a butterfly emerging from a cocoon? This is what the Gnostics taught. Or is more a metaphor that describes what it means to put our faith in Christ and to be washed clean by Him? We don't lose our free will but can be deceived by Satan and led astray by him at any time, but especially as a young believer.
 
ResidentAlien

ResidentAlien

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#198
Apr 21, 2021
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#198
2 Peter 2:22 " . . . a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."

They were "washed" at one point but returned to the mud.
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#199
Dec 18, 2021
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#199
The_Watchers_2017 said:
Christians ABANDONING Christ:
Galatians 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly turning away from the One who called you by the grace of Messiah, to a different “good news”

^
Proof people rejected Christ after Accepting Him found in Paul's Letters.


1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Ruach clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, following deceitful spirits and teachings of demons
2 through the hypocrisy of false speakers—whose own conscience has been seared.

^
Notice, this is not about the CHURCH but about BELIEVERS/PEOPLE that have been Saved Falling Away.


Hebrews 10:29 How much more severe do you think the punishment will be for the one who has trampled Elohim underfoot, and has regarded as unholy the blood of the covenant by which he was made holy, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

^
Saved People who later trample God and regard the Blood Sacrifice as unholy + insults the Spirit of Grace = more severe punishment



Example after example of BELIEVERS walking away from Salvation and being Eternally Punished for it.

where's the LYING Doctrine of Eternal Salvation found within these FOUR Verses at?
Click to expand...
They WERE NOT SAVED.

They claimed they BELIEVED. but they REJECTED THE GOSPEL and tried to ADD WORKS OF THE LAW to the gospel.

which is a different gospel

Their faith was in the law. thats why they could not recieve the true gospel completely.
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#200
Apr 22, 2013
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#200
“Firm” root i
Inquisitor said:
Your trying to establish the idea that anyone who falls away from the faith. Never believed in the first instance.

Luke 8:13
Those on the rocky soil are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and yet these do not have a firm root; they believe for a while, and in a time of temptation they fall away.

The scripture does say they believe for a while.
Click to expand...
“Firm” root is a terrible translation.

The Greek word is clearly “NO”.
3756. ou, ouk, ouch ►
Strong's Concordance
ou, ouk, ouch: not, no​
Original Word: οὐ
Part of Speech: Particle, Negative
Transliteration: ou, ouk, ouch
Phonetic Spelling: (oo)
Definition: not, no
Usage: no, not.

These people had NO root. Jesus, IS the root. It’s one of His many titles. They never had Jesus, and were never sealed with the Holy Spirit.​
 
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