Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

presidente said:
How is this pre-trib? At the end of the thousand years in Revelation, the new Jerusalem descends out of heaven like a bride adorned for her Husband.
Ah, just another vain attempt to put words into my mouth. I never said anything about "no Christian", as you dishonestly claim.

So, since you either just don't pay attention, or your claim was in fact dishonest, this is what I actually did say about those "who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord" from 1 Thess 4. Since the single resurrection will occur at the Second Advent (coming) those who are alive and remain will "be changed in the twinkling of an eye" per 1 Cor 15:52 but Jesus doesn't take the group up to heaven.

So, the ones who will be "caught up to gether with them" (1 Thess 4) or "gathered up" (2 Thess 2:1) won't ever see the 3rd heaven.

The ONLY WAY they would is if Jesus takes them there, but since there are no verses describing such a trip, there is NO REASON to believe there will be such a trip.

Why don't you just believe the verses and quit making up stuff that isn't in the Bible.

FreeGrace2 said:
It is interesting how the pre-tribbers think MOST of "the church" is still on earth, awating this "rapture" and trip to heaven.
You should read what you guys post. That is exactly what it appears you believe.

All you talk about is Jesus taking "the church" to heaven.

And that has been MY point all along. So, by your own admission here, MOST of the churh age believers will already be in heaven "when He comes", per 1 For 15:23. The Second Advent.

Because, now pay attention this time, all you guys talk about is "the church" being raptured. When you say that it sounds as if the whole church, which is obviously wrong, since MOST of "the church" is already in heaven.

However, at the resurrection, which is "when He comes", WAY MORE than just "the church" will recieve glorified bodies, because there will be ALL the OT saints as well.

So, your frequent comment about "the church" is rather irrelevant to Jesus' coming and the resurrection.

It would be better to just say believers.

There are no uses of "rapture" or "snatch" in the Bible. The biblical words are "caught up" and "gathered together".

Well, well, well. We DO agree on something. I too believe that the Bema will occur after Jesus comes back to reign on earth for the Millennium, and it only makes sense to reward ALL believers at the same time and when they are in their new bodies.

FreeGrace2 said:
Here is what else I found:

"the resurrection"

ESV = 144 times
Berean Study Bible = 137
NKJV = 183
"a resurrection"

ESV = 22
NIV = 19NKJV = 25
So you have no point. The Bible screams just 1 resurrecction for the saved and 1 for the unsaved, and that is very clear from Rev 20:4-6.
I seriously doubt that you checked every verse that mentions the resurrection.

btw, your comments about the definite article are irrelevant since the word itself is NEVER in the plural. That was my point anyway.

So you go off hafl cocked about whether "the" is in the verse or not. Again, completely missing the point.

If there were more than 1 resurrection, how come the Bible NEVER admits it?

Wow, talk about missing the point, or just plain sloppy reading!!

The word "each" does NOT mean "more than two" as you claim. v.23 addresses the resurrection of the saved, or "those who belong to Him", which includes ALL OT believers. So there are ONLY 2 in that verse. The FIRST one to receive a resurrection body is Jesus Christ Himself, and "then, when He comes" EVERYONE ELSE.

The reason you have these unbiblical notions is because you either just don't read correctly, or you have strong and unbiblical biases.

This is unfortunately delusional. Of course it is Christ Himself. He was the first to receive a resurrection body.

Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Who said this? Paul. So this verse is directly linked to 1 Cor 15:23.

Paul was describing the singular resurrection, or the FIRST resurrection that John stated in Rev 20:5. That is what sinks your boat.

Since you've seen the 3 verses that speak of A resurrection of the saved and A resurrection of the unsaved, we know there will be ONLY 2 resurrections total. I am not counting the resurrection of Christ, since He is the God-man. I am only counting just humans.

And Rev 20 makes very clear that the FIRST resurrection (of saved) occurs 1,000 years BEFORE the next one, which has to be all the unsaved, since at the battle of Gog and Magog, all living unbelievers will be killed by fire coming down from heaven. THEN the unsaved will be resurrected to face the GWT judgment.

I want to be pernickity, something that has always bugged me sore.

It doesn't SAY "unsaved" everybody assumes they are all unsaved in the final resurrection

It says they were JUDGED every man according to his works. The word damnation actually means judgement.

Books will be opened and another book which is the book of life and they will be judged out of those things written in the books according to their works

... and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

You are RIGHT there are the two resurrections one thousand years apart. in the first resurrection we go to be with the Lord forever, we will reign for the thousand years .... how then can we at all figure in this final judgement, which is the same judgement as Matthew 25? the sheep and goats. We come with Him to that judgement.

We are the crowd the Lord calls "these My brethren" so then ... who are the righteous sheeps?

This whole subject of the last judgement needs looking at again.

You're not remembering a couple of things I've pointed out:

--the dead in Christ are indeed "at home with the Lord" now; but not in their old bodies (which are in the ground / buried) and not yet in their new "glorified" / "perfected" bodies;


--the part (re: them) that says, "shall God bring WITH [UNIONed-with] Him" isn't referring to their coming with Him at the time when "the Lord shall descend" and their bodies-in-the-graves "stand again" (are "resurrected") and then we're "caught up together with" them (that's at the "snatch" time-slot, i.e. "rapture / harpazo"); rather is referring to when He will bring us [the entire "Church which is His body" in glorified bodies] WITH [G4862] Him upon His RETURN to the earth Rev19... Paul is saying, they will NOT be left out of the "...[ye also] shall appear WITH Him in glory" just because they DIED prior to that point (and here's how, he explains);


--pre-tribbers believe that when He returns to the earth [Rev19] that is also a "coming" (hence, v.23b speaking of this--as the second of TWO "future" things in this verse that are relatively closer together in time, which is what the Greek word "EPeita" indicates)... and His return to the earth is also [His] "parousia" (context determining "what location" and "who all's involved" or not);
for example, ALL "Son of man coming / cometh / shall come / etc" refers to His Second Coming to the earth (to judge and to
reign) Rev19;
Those aren't the only verses that speak of it... so does "Behold, I COME as a thief." as was already mentioned earlier in this thread...
...so does, "that when he COMETH and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately" (the first part of this verse saying, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" i.e. as an already-wed "Bridegroom" not TO BE wed to these "Blessed" saints still-living on the earth upon His "RETURN" there)...
...and many many more.
No one is denying that that is (also) labeled as "come / a coming / Him coming" or whatever...


It is only those who wrongly insist there can ONLY be ONE time-slot for ALL "COME" words regarding Him (but recall, there were TWO [distinct references to "COME"] in His first advent: His "out of thee [Bethlehem Ephrata] shall he COME forth unto me..." and His "thy king COMETH unto thee [unto Jerusalem]... lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass" and these were not things that occurred at the same time-slot, but some 30 years apart.) Just as we do not insist, like the "Amill-teachings" do about the word "RAISE" used 3x in Acts 3 insist that all 3x refer to His being "raised from the dead," when they do not all refer to that (when one really reads the text with understanding of what exactly is being conveyed in that passage--and not injecting one's prior "idea [/theology]" INTO the passage, but letting is SAY what it actually does say, and not what they "have to make it FIT their IDEA" to be saying instead.)





[another example: Hebrews 9:28 is not saying He's only coming a SECOND time and that's the Rev19 thing. Not what this passage is saying, Only His First Advent and His Second Advent... or the like]

Allow me to say one more thing, on that point ^ (which I've stated in past threads),

--BOTH ["come" words] "erchomai" and "parousia" are used (of Him) regarding the point in time of our Rapture [IN THE AIR] AND the point in time of His Second Coming to the earth.

They aren't used exclusively for one or the other of these.

(CONTEXT determines "in what location [/circumstances]" and "who all is involved"... etc)

By all means.

Well, think about this, Mr pernickity. In the FINAL resurrection, ALL of them are going to the GWT judgment, and THEN into the LOF. So, it's not real hard to figure out.

Another factoid for you: both the judgment of the saved and of the unsaved they are judged "according to their works".

How 'bout that! 2 Cor 5:10 and Rev 20:11-15

Right. That means the unsaved. They never believed, so they never received eternal life and therefore, they are UNSAVED.

Actually, another factoid. When believers die, they immediately go to be with the Lord.

There are 2 judgments. The separation kinda sounds like all at once, but when all verses are considered, they ARE 1,000 years apart.

His brethren.

How so? Everyone will receive a "last judgment".

The saved at the Bema, when Christ returns. The unsaved at the GWT judgment. 1,000 years apart.

FreeGrace2 said:
So, by your own admission here, MOST of the churh age believers will already be in heaven "when He comes"
Well, obviously, "when He comes" all of them will be WITH Him, naturally.

I see you never took the excellent advice many posters gave you about your hard to follow typing where you throw together brackets, bolds, larger letters, parentheses, etc. Why don't you just type without all that distraction?

And that is your problem. The OT prophesied about 2 comings or Advents only. So every use of "the coming of Jesus", "His coming", etc refers to the Second Advent.

As far as the Bible is concerned there are only 2 Advents of the Lord. Jesus' appearance before Paul on the road wasn't prophesied so is not a "coming".

1 Cor 15:23 refutes this. All believers will be resurrected at the same time.

Good grief. When the Bible mentions Advent or 'coming' it is only referring to coming to earth. Not returning to Israel from Egypt, or whatever you think the uncited verse you quote from.

Hello, earth to TDW.

Please don't tell someone a verse "isn't saying this" but then FAILS to explain what it DOES SAY. Why do you do that?

Why should I believe what the Bible 'isn't saying' when you don't tell me what it does say?

Same event.

You are dead wrong, because you don't know Greek. 1 Thess 4:17 is the Second Coming, and here's why! (Even the KJV does not use the word "rapture!) Don't argue it is like the word "Trinity" which is a real doctrine, because references to the Trinity are found all over the NT. Which brings us back to hermeneutics & that you should never make a doctrine of something found in only 1 place, (not including the support verses, which are misinterpreted!)

"17 ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα." SBL Greek NT

1. Apantesin ἀπάντησιν. This word means "meet & go back" In the ancient Greek world, a returning victor would land in a port. The subjects of this leader would go out to meet him, and accompany him back to the city! Also known as a triumphant March. *

It is also used about Paul in Acts 28;15. Where the people go out from Rome to meet Paul, then return with him to Rome. So, the people, or saints go to meet Jesus, then return with him to earth for the final judgement. In fact, nowhere in this verse or passage is the word "heaven" used.

Both Paul in Thessalonians and Luke in Acts have excellent Greek and were very precise in the meaning they wanted to communicate!

2. aera ἀέρα, meaning the air around us! We meet Jesus in the air around us. Ouranos or heaven is not used at all in this verse or passage. Besides which, we are returning with Jesus to the earth. That is what Christians are doing!

3. Harpazo ἁρπάζω (lexical form). ἁρπαγησόμεθα (Future middle or passive, the form found in the verse!) This means "snatch or grab." It is a verb, not a noun. It can never be "THE rapture" because "the" accompanies a noun, and the word is a verb!

"1 Thessalonians 4:17 tn Or “snatched up.” The Greek verb ἁρπάζω implies that the action is quick or forceful, so the translation supplied the adverb “suddenly” to make this implicit notion clear." NET

This verb refers to the speed it is done. Not what it is (a rapture!) and where it is going! (Heaven!)

3. Secret. It is not there in this passage. The concept of a "secret" rapture is supposedly found in other NT verses. But the words "secret rapture" are never found together in the Bible. Well, rapture is not a word from the Bible st all. Feel free to cross check every translation & language. It does sort of appear in the Latin Vulgate. Jerome translated the Bible into Latin inthe 4th century AD. But his Greek wasn't very good. He may not have really known what the word meant. So he transliterated it, instead! That means he found a word in Latin that SOUNDED like the word in Greek, which is Rapiemur, according to one internet source!! So not a translation.

So a very wrong concept read into this verse. No secret rapture going to heaven. In fact, 1& 2 Thess. Are both written to the Thessalonians, to counter rumours that Jesus had already come, and most people missed it! If Paul was writing about a "rapture," he would have referred to the missing people, as he was countering the lie that Jesus had already come! He might have asked them, "Are people missing?" Because that is the supposed prediction of Dispensationalism. Therefore it is a prophecy regarding the Second Coming!

* "The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the New Testament." Rogers & Rogers

That is FULL of your presumptions, not just yours but it is the general presumption. It says they will be judged ... but YOU have already judged them.

To say that Christ will say to the righteous sheep "inasmuch as you have done it unto one the least of these My brethren .... "does not make an atom of sense if they themselves are the brethren.
Know your bible, God does talk so carelessly.

I just said, there's no "article" ('a') in Greek.




Never once have I stated that it WAS.

I said (in past threads) that word "appear [passive]" (re: Jesus) is used 10x of Him (out of over 600x that word is used), and that in 5 of those verses it's about what He did AFTER His resurrection (in those "40 days" He was with His disciples, and only THEM seeing Him--not unbelievers / unsaved persons), the other 5 of those verses about when He "appeared" unto Paul from His position UP IN HEAVEN.

But I've NEVER made the point that Jesus' appearance before Paul on the road was a "COMING"--pay attention to what I actually have said, not make up things I've never said (giving others the impression I have said such things--causing confusion ) when I've not.






I said, about the "appear" word, that one would have to come up with a more convincing verse than Heb9:28 to convince me of what it is they THINK it is conveying: "FIRST ADVENT" and thus "SECOND ADVENT"--man-applied labels, to help aid in communication, but sometimes hindering "understanding" of certain texts.
"...will appear a second time apart from sin" (or, "a second time apart from sin shall appear") <--the first time He did that was AFTER His death/resurrection, and AFTER His first ascension ON His Resurrection Day / ON Firstfruit (Lev23:10-12; Jn20:17)... to multiple ppl, at various moments... but not what is commonly called "His First Advent" (birth and earthly ministry BEFORE the Cross).

It doesn't have to be.

And I've never suggested that it is.



Again, read a couple of those verses you've said "proves" your point, noting the ones that do not have the "definite article" ('the'), and read it without the non-existent "article" ('a'), and see if you think it still says / means "THE ONE AND ONLY [resurrection of the saved]..." (it doesn't).





[And again, for the readers: Daniel 12:1-4 is NOT about a "physical / bodily resurrection" from being previously physically / bodily DEAD (like v.13 IS about); It is instead referring to Israel coming up out of the graveyard of nations, where SCATTERED, which is LIKENED UNTO a resurrection... just as in Ezek37:12-14,20-23, Rom11:15, Hos5:14-6:3, and a number of other passages on THAT Subject I already listed in a previous post]

"presidente" is making the same point you are making.

He is not arguing a "pre-trib" point, here.

"presidente" is saying the same thing you are making a point to say, because that is also his position on the matter.

He's "post-trib" not "pre-"...

... and has given that same illustration earlier in this same thread (as I recall... )

Perhaps many others are in need of new glasses, and not just me. lol






( )

"I think it was meant for FG2. As a foil to his "no Christian gets to heaven" theory"

Right. No believer makes it to heaven. Just a resurrection, a quick levitation to 35,000 ft then plunked back down to terra firma.

A useful post of yours from another thread. It's nice to keep these jewels bookmarked.

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4719328

"the word "King" (re: Jesus) is used only TWO TIMES in all of the epistles, and in both of those passages it is speaking of this in the "future" tense (...ponder this).

[see also the "future tense" of Rev19:15b "and He SHALL rule them with a rod of iron..." (from the point in time of His Second Coming to the earth)]"

Well....that particular question was not broached in the text. However two very similar concordant (but false) assertions WERE.

"The thing is.....these verses lend further credence to the IMPLICATION of 2 Thes 2, where there also the Thessalonians MAY have thought that they had missed the rapture, and DEFINITELY thought that they were in the DOTL aka the 70th week of Daniel. At any rate, good pre-trib rapture passages for sure. I will be sure to keep these in my pre-trib passages arsenal.

2Th 2:1
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren,

2Th 2:2
not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.


2Ti 2:16
But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

2Ti 2:17
And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

2Ti 2:18
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some."

IMO....these passages are extremely compelling. Pre-trib rapture all the way.....

Totally agree....


Heb 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him (IMO in this case Christian believers exclusively) shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Why Christians exclusively? Why....right here is why.

1Th 5:3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them (who do not "look for Him"), as travail upon a woman with child (DOTL seal judgements); and they shall not escape.

1Th 5:4
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief
(because you/ye ARE "look [-ing] for Him").

I think what you mean to say is that there is no mention (nor concept) of "harpazo [G726]" in the Olivet Discourse.





And here is what Strong's Concordance (and Exhaustive Concordance) have to say about that word (used in 1Th4:17, regarding "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... ALL those having come to faith in Christ "in this present age [singular]"):

[quoting from BibleHub]

G726 -

Strong's Concordance
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad'-zo)
Definition: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Usage: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.



Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

catch, seize, take by force.
From a derivative of haireomai [G138]; to seize (in various applications) -- catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

see GREEK haireomai [G138 - a word I referred to earlier in this thread]


[end quoting from BibleHub]

-- https://biblehub.com/greek/726.htm




... methinks you are simply making things up, instead of really doing any "thinking" and "searching" to see if what you're saying "is so"