Poll of polls on the longest running debate:

When I say a person forfeits their salvation I'm using a sports metaphor:

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forfeit_(sport)

It results from a person's unwillingness to meet the standards of the game. They don't automatically forfeit every time there's an infraction of the rules. If that was the case every contest would result in a forfeit.

God doesn't kick us off the field for no reason. We get booted off by our own unwillingness to play by God's standards. But I know you don't really want this information. You're just grasping at anything.

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

No, that is not how salvation is "forfeited". God has made provision for repentance on a daily basis. One does not lose salvation by failing to maintain perfection. Just because I commit a sinful act does not mean that I have willfully chosen to leave the faith. Apostacy is a willful act of walking away with no intention of returning. The Prodigal son wisely decided to repent and return. Some do not. No one "loses" salvation. Nothing outside of ourselves can separate us from the Lord. Only we ourselves can willfully chose to become castaways.

1 Corinthians 9:27
“But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.”

It is so important to maintain a spirit of humility and repent whenever we err. Never become haughty and arrogant and tell God that He cannot remove you from His Book. He said He could.

Here is one example:
Revelation 22:19
“And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”

I am just going off the definition of forfeiting ones salvation.

as for the prodigal son, did he ever stop being the son? did his fathers blood stop flowing through his veins? he was and always was his son, if he died while he was away, he still would have been the son, in fact he recieved his inheritance.

when God saves a person he does it based on what?

1. He knew the person before they were conceived
2. He knew their past sins
3. He knows their future sins
4. He knows their heart attitude (if they have true faith or not)

so if God saved a person who would later give him the finger, is it not God who messed up and not the person?

And remember, John said they were never of us. Just because a person claims to have faith and spends years in church does not mean they have ever been saved..

Gods standard is perfection.

If meeting Gods standard is required, or we forfeit. then no one will get to heaven.

“
lol sure Gods grace that offers salvstion includes repentance and actually living right

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭

Condensing things is why Christian’s constantly argue .

this verse doesn’t alter everything else

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8‬ ‭

it’s just a sentance in a long letter . All
Of it reconciles all of it applies is the simple point There is no salvstion by the word grace it happens by gods grace which teaches repentance from bad works and teaches us to become zealous of good works

there’s also the distortion of grace how this isn’t true

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-10‬

“we’re all saved already our deeds don’t matter we’ll never be judged “

that’s exactly why israel was destroyed and left desolate it’s there to create the fear of God in a believer so they will repent and start taking notice of how t he are actually living knowing this

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you can condense things but then you’ll never understand much but some catch phrases like we’re “saved by grace “ true statement but has no understanding of salvstion or grace

from the mouth of Jesus, John 14 tells us the Father is dwelling inside Jesus doing the TALKING, and Verses 14 and 15 express if we [[do not]] Forgive others the Father [[will not]] Forgive us.

i would definitely say it is a SIN!

All souls will always be creations of the Father, that does not mean that no souls will end up in the everlasting fire. Prodigal Son was not forced to return. He wisely chose to return. His inheritance was squandered. He almost lost everything. We were not admonished to walk soberly without good reason.

A continuance of abiding in the Vine. This is not a work. This is living by faith. This is walking in the Light.

No, God fully realizes that not all will persevere to the end. He knew Judas would betray Him.

Agree. Some never were saved. Others were saved and turned apostate.

He did not lose his sonship

before we are adopted into Gods family we are children of satan. If we are not adopted, we will remain children of satan.
We abide in the vine to produce fruit. Not to be saved. As far as salvation goes. God does the attaching and God does the holding. it is all of him


Then salvation is not a gift, it is a reward, a wage, and is not by grace, but by works

Yes God knew judas would betray him, thats why in John 6 Jesus called Judas an unbeliever and a devil


the apostate where never saved.. If they were saved, as John said, they never would have left. As scripture says, we are not of those who fall away. Who are we? We are the true believers.

Not what the Bible says. It is the man himself that is casted into the fire, not just His works. The branch refers to the man, not his works.

John 15:6
“If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”

...and God does the casting.

Is. So let's not take it for granted and handle it recklessly.

They are those who abandon the Faith (by definition.)

forfeit simply means to QUIT!

if you had to research what forfeit means, you are looking to redefine it for your own purpose.

I remember a rebellion in Heaven. Lucifer, along with 1/3 of the angels rebelled against God & lost their honorable position with God. It was not God who made them rebel, but they themselves. They were still angels, but became known as demons.

I read of another rebellion in the NT.
2Thess 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

V2 in other translations it says rebellion for falling away.
Jesus taught many parables in the gospels, & many of them warn us not to be deceived, to be faithful, to be found doing His will when He comes.
I can't imagine Jesus warning us to watch & pray, to be obedient if once we believe it's done.

Some believe they're forever forgiven, but not so. Jesus plainly stated anyone wo does not forgive will not be forgiven. My, does that add complexity to OSAS!
In the OT those who rebelled, who once had the promises of God & called His people were severely judged for their rebellion. Rebels in the NT will be judged as well. They will believe a lie & be damned. That's what the falling away & the Tribulation is about.. the final judgment on those who rebelled from the teachings of Jesus to believe the doctrines of men.

These rebels aren't sinners who have never been saved, for they didn't rebel from their master.. Rebels are those who have tasted of God's goodness, yet allowed themselves to be deceived & rebel from God in their deception.

There's no need for warnings if the end result doesn't change.

yes lol I’m positive you could but can you accept Gods grace which comes with instruction
for repentance and Obedience while we wait for that day ? the grace Paul taught that saves souls ?

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-

Repentance from sin and also learning and doing what he said to do , needs to be accepted or we’re rejecting this part of Gods saving grace

“teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;”

that parts really important because of this part

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5

if we confess our sins as we become aware of them and repent now we have remission so we don’t have to be judged by them but we do have to accept a gods ways like confession and repentance from sin when we realize we’ve done wrong

“If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:6-10‬ ‭

if we believe we’re going to be saved but grace through faith does not mean “ now I’m already saved and nothing else Jesus said applies now I have faith so I never need to obey God again !”

that’s not gods grace it’s this

“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Jude‬ ‭1:4‬ ‭

Grace through faith means we have to hear what God said in the gospel through Christ and believe it that will save us

well I don’t think so brother I think some are babes and others are mature so some can hear it some can’t it’s for maturing

“But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭5:14‬ ‭a

the Bible has milk like this

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there’s no understanding in it however of what is grace and how does it save us ? And what is faith how does it save us ?

if we instead of looking for single verses to support what we think already and do this we can learn about how grace saves us and what it includes to change our thinking to Gods thinking

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, ( repentance )

we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; ( obedience )

looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; ( expecting Christs return )

who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. ( understanding why he suffered and died for us to what end )

These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

saying grace doesn’t save us , accepting the gospel which is full of grace and truth does

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

For the law was given by Moses,

but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:14, 16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s why Paul calls the gospel of Jesus Christ “ the gospel of grace “

Jesus teaches us this if we hear and believe the gospel

teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, ( repentance )

we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; ( obedience )

that’s where we learn what grace means to God and man

I feel like a kid cheating on an exam in this regard. Maybe I'm not alone. I was isolating myself before covid hit and not having to deal with worldly things makes it easy to obey. I liked your observation at the doctors office about the social media. i use flip phone and this chat is first time ever for me. Good to hear from you brother.

always a blessing to her from you brother

yes brother the yoke is easy because we are learning as we grow up when thing like that come to our mind , it is t Gid scolding or shaming us , just our father teaching us a better way he shows us things like that to alter our course and make us more fruitful .

everything in the gospel is spoken and done by a gods love for us and will to save us that’s an encouraging thought he went far to save us , he’s not going to throw us away easily

it is about bearing fruit

John 15: 15 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;(lifts up) and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

The context of Jesus words are Gods people and bearing fruit. Not salvation.

God gave eternal life and adopted them as a child. He is not going to cast his child away.



I agree, But it is still a gift. I can't earn it any more than I can unearn it

Not everyone who claims to have faith has true faith.. Apostates are those who were part of the church (by claiming to have faith) and departed to what their true faith lie in.

A dog returns to his vomit, because he is a dog.

A dog who was made into a new creation in christ is no longer a dog.. so they do not return to their vomit, because they are not a dog.

Sometimes Bible discussions seem like a chess game to me.

- What say you to my Queen’s gambit opening and my move into Knight F 3?
- I see your queen gambit opening and I will raise you a Sicilian defense with C5 !

my friend, I got my definition from the dictionary.

even if it means to quit, How can you quit saving yourself? You can't save yourself to begin with, so you can't quit! Only God can quit the process of salvation

Grace is unmerited favor. Your trying to earn it

You can't earn grace

Spiritual growth comes with instructions. That (even this being under the power of God) is the only thing you have control over, thats why you EARN rewards for good works ONCE saved..

Obviously. if someone stops believing in Jesus then they are not saved.

How does one guard against falling away from Jesus?

By walking in the Spirit everyday!

Jesus will never let you go, never. Unless you opt out of the relationship of course.