Even So Faith, If It Hath Not Works, Is Dead, Being Alone.

Haven't you ever read the epistle by James?? That was his point in ch 2. So, in fact, faith CAN exist without works.

James' point was to challenge his audience to demonstrate their faith BY their works. iow, if a believer doesn't have works, they CAN'T demonstrate their faith to others.

No it doesn't. If that were true, there would be NO NEED for all the commands in the NT for "being worthy" etc.

This has absolutely nothing to do with salvation. Many people "have faith" they will be paid, and so do the work, only to find the company filed for bankruptcy and can't pay them for work DONE.

Please try another example.

You are confused. If "faith causes action", then there is NO REASON for commands. They would be automatically done.

This isn't the gospel in any way, shape or form. When a person realizes they are a sinner, and cannot save themself, and hear the gospel promise that those who put their trust in the work of Christ on the cross for salvation, Jesus saves them.

More confusion. That verse is about progressive sanctification, which is the present tense of salvation, or spiritual growth. It is not about how to go to heaven.

btw, since I have you on the line, why did you put a red X on my post #57 where I told another poster that no one is chosen for salvation?

Do you know any verse that says that election is to salvation?

No. Faith CAN'T exist without works. Its DEAD. That is what He's saying.

Its IMPOSSIBLE to show your faith without works because faith CAUSES work.

Try it. Show your faith without showing your work.

This isn't the gospel in any way, shape or form. When a person realizes they are a sinner, and cannot save themself, and hear the gospel promise that those who put their trust in the work of Christ on the cross for salvation, Jesus saves them.


Hearing doesn't do anything. Faith without works is dead, it doesn't exist.

This has absolutely nothing to do with salvation. Many people "have faith" they will be paid, and so do the work, only to find the company filed for bankruptcy and can't pay them for work DONE.

Please try another example.


Nope. Its exactly why people go to work. To get paid. If they had no faith in getting paid they wouldn't go. And so Faith CAUSES action.

Same with calling on the Lord Jesus. If they don't have faith in Jesus they won't call on Him in their time of need.


More confusion. That verse is about progressive sanctification, which is the present tense of salvation, or spiritual growth. It is not about how to go to heaven.


Its perfectly clear. There is nothing in there that is confusing. Those who are Saved KNOW where their Salvation has come from.


All verses about salvation imply election.

If you are not chosen for salvation then you don't receive salvation.

Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The first message given regarding required obedience after one has faith in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection is found in Acts chapter 2:

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:35-39)

Peter states belief, repentance and submitting to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus are required. Those who believe the message and obey are promised they will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Scripture references show the Holy Ghost is given at different times after a person believes the message. This truth is mentioned in Acts 5:32, "And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him."

"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:9

FreeGrace2 said:
James' point was to challenge his audience to demonstrate their faith BY their works. iow, if a believer doesn't have works, they CAN'T demonstrate their faith to others.
Your opinion is not supported by Scripture. And you do not understand James 2 at all.

Then none of James 2:14-16 would make any sense.

That was James' point. You can't show your faith without works. He wrote to believers.

Well, one HAS TO hear before they can believe. Romans 10

James ended ch 2 with "a body without a spirit is dead". Does that mean at physical death, the body "doesn't exist"? That would be absurd.

Your "example" fails.

Rather than providing an opinion, what verse supports your opinion?

Prove this from Scripture.

There is NOTHING here about being chosen for salvation.

Keep trying. When you finally realize there are NO verses that say that election is to salvation, I will prove to you from Scripture that election is to service.

Then I’ll leave you to your doctrine of demons.

As for me, I’ll just stick with the doctrine of the Bible through God’s chosen apostle, Paul.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

All invite in John 3 :16 God invite whosoever before the foundation of the world
whosoever believe. Every body welcome to believe.

FreeGrace2 said:
You weren't chosen for salvation.
Nice opinion, but it isn't biblical.

The reality is that you have no verse that says election is to salvation.

otoh, I have many verses that clearly state of purpose of election is to service.

he he he.

First, the word "chosen" here is NOT the Greek word translated throughout the NT for election. That word is eklekomai. The word here in 2 Thess 2:13 is "haireomai".

Second, if you would read the verse with more care, you would realize what it is really saying. It is saying that God chose to save people THROUGH SANCTIFICATION AND BELIEF IN THE TRUTH.

iow, The choosing here isn't salvation, but the means OF SALVATION. Are you aware of that difference?

iow, this is God's policy for whom to save. He will save those through sanctification and belief in the truth.

That is a condition. Yet, TULIP means UNCONDITIONAL election "to salvation". That would mean faith isn't necessary for salvation and I have many many verses that say precisely that we are saved on the basis of faith.

What people have to understand is, just because Jesus died and brought grace on the table, it does mean we as people or servants sit around with hands in our pockets. Remember grace was in the days of Noah. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. (Genesis 6:8), And Noah and his family was saved. Noah obeyed God and build that ark. But to maintain your grace you must keep the law. (1John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.) It doesn’t matter what you or I think sin is, it’s what God says sin is that counts.

Here's a few things the Bible speaks of that we must do.

1. Repent: give a lifestyle of sin, Because for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 23:3).
2. Get Baptize in the name of Jesus for your sins that is past, not future sins. And come under the blood of Christ. Paul says in Romans 6: 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
3. Keep the Commandments....A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19). This was a direct answer to a direct question, which all of us will do well to take heed to.

I would say that all these requirements may take some work, depending on the individual, but these are thing that we must do. Let's take a look at something Paul said in Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. Now lets understand and reason together, Paul just gave us a run down on condition of sins. People who are behaving in such manner will not inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God, even those who are unclean. Being unclean does not mean a person doesn’t wash up, we are not talking about soap and water. We are talking about defiling the body and the mind, with unholiness or unGodliness.

No one is talking about slacking off after being saved!

Most believers I know who adhere to osas are very faithful!

Why? Because they are at peace, secure!

You are talking works based salvation big time man. That's not Christian salvation.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


You can't manufacture the conditions required for Salvation. No one can. They are given as a gift of God. Even (especially) faith.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

FreeGrace2 said:
You weren't chosen for salvation.

Nice opinion, but it isn't biblical.

The reality is that you have no verse that says election is to salvation.

otoh, I have many verses that clearly state of purpose of election is to service.
Right. Unless a believer is in fellowship with the Lord (abiding) he is unable to do anything.

The next verse (v.45) tells us who WILL come to Jesus: those who have listened and learned from the Father. It's still about free will.

Aren't you able to put your trust in either a person or an object, like a bridge?

Not. In the Greek, the genders MUST MATCH. In Eph 2:8, both salvation and gift are in the feminine gender, while "faith" is masculine.

Therefore, faith is NEVER said to be a gift. The gift ALWAYS refers to salvation (Eph 2:8) or eternal life (Rom 6:23).

Still not a gift. The "fruit of the Spirit" refer to characteristics that a believer will evidence WHEN being filled with the Spirit.

Just as you freely accepted Jesus in your life you can also freely choose to stop serving him. Jesus said with his own mouth; (Matt. 24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. That is until the end of your life, or until the Second Coming of the Lord.

Jesus warned us that the road to salvation is straight and narrow and that only a few of us will find it. Many are traveling down the wrong road, which leads to destruction. This is because many of us have heard about salvation but few of us want to do what is necessary to get salvation (many are called but few are chosen). (Matthew 7:13, 14) Many contend that Jesus did it all and now all we have to do is have faith.

Nevertheless, in judgment each one of us will give account for our own salvation. Therefore, we must not let anyone lead us down the wrong path, but should verify all of our teaching with the holy bible. YOUR SALVATION IS AT STAKE! "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12).

Throughout the bible we find that in order to receive eternal salvation we must keep God's commandments to the end. If we make a mistake we must not give up, but I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus (Philippians 3:13-14). The last chapter in the whole bible reminds us of this one last time. "Blessed are they that do his commandments that they may have right to the tree of life." (Revelation 22:14).

This is correct. But what is NOT correct is your presumption that those who cease to believe or cease to follow or cease to serve will lose their salvation.

You have ZERO verses that SAY what you SAY.

This is a tired excuse. The context is the 7 year Tribulation. Didn't you read the whole context?

He was speaking of believers and unbelievers. Why do you think lifestyle is involved in salvation? Paul's answer to the jailer should have informed you of your error. Why do you persist?

There are EXACTLY NO VERSES that say what you say. Or prove it with verses.

Your view only tramples God's grace. Salvation is by grace, not by works, not by lifestyle.

For the gazzionth time.. 'he who endures to the end shall be saved will be saved' is about trials and tribulation... not eternal salvation.. that is the context.

Working out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Context is not about eternal salvation but what you do with your faith.. having already been given eternal salvation.

Think about the difference between salvation and service. They aren't the same. They aren't dependent on each other.

Working out your salvation with fear and trembling IS about Eternal Salvation.

But people mis-understand the fear and trembling part. It isn't fear of God taking Salvation back. It is more a fear of knowing for sure that God IS and that He is a Rewarder of those who come to Him.

Jeremiah 33:8-9
8 And I will cleanse them from all their iniquity, whereby they have sinned against me; and I will pardon all their iniquities, whereby they have sinned, and whereby they have transgressed against me.

9 And it shall be to me a name of joy, a praise and an honour before all the nations of the earth, which shall hear all the good that I do unto them: and they shall fear and tremble for all the goodness and for all the prosperity that I procure unto it.


Its one of the only other places I could find that contains that phrase "fear and trembling".

Aren't they?

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

If it were, then salvation is EARNED by what you DO and HOW you live.

The Bible refutes your ideas. Eph 2:8-9 tells us that we are saved by GRACE through faith, NOT of works.

wattie said:
Think about the difference between salvation and service. They aren't the same. They aren't dependent on each other.
No, wattie is right.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.[/QUOTE]
This verse doesn't help your claims. It says believers are God's workmanship, created in Christ for good works. It doesn't say that they will be accomplished. But that is what God created the believer for.

In fact, this verse proves that election is to service and not salvation.

Yes God wants us to do good works. But gives eternal life without condition so we can actually do good works!

Without unconditional love we can't do good works that God would consider right.

If we fail in trying to do good works... God stays with us. It's not a conditional work contract but relationship

I believe Jesus does not want to drop and leave us, God is long suffering, merciful, and desires that no one is lost.
The bible tells us that sin seperates us from God. The bible tells us that God did leave people to there own destruction.

I believe Faith is how we are saved. Righteousness by faith alone.

Do you not see the conditions all through the bible? Are you purposely ignoring the conditions?

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: ..........(read it all if you have time) ....41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when........46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I could add many more verses....

It is not about doing good works to be saved. We are not able to purchase salvation.
Faith in Jesus results in a relationship (knowing Him), this results in love for Him.
If you truely love God you will have fruits, and obey Him.
It isn't about the amount, because some people come to know Jesus just before they die.
The devil delieves and knows all about God, but his fruits show that he does not love God.

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.