Who or what is the rock?

arthurfleminger · Sep 22, 2022

Mem said:

I hold my position that Jesus was speaking directly to Peter and not addressing the other apostles. There is no indication at all that he was addressing the other apostles, notice that Jesus said these things to Peter:

Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood* has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,* and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.* Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Jesus is talking directly to Peter, no doubt about it.

JohnDB · Sep 22, 2022

Everlasting-Grace said:

Keys are to the store rooms of power and treasures of Heaven.

Cameron143 · Sep 22, 2022

arthurfleminger said:

We'll just have to disagree. But these verses to me do show the exercise of authority. Paul also exercised authority over Peter when he corrected him concerning his hypocrisy in refusing to eat with the gentiles. Did Paul assume this role on his own?

Bob-Carabbio · Sep 22, 2022

Cameron143 said:

The "ROCK" was the Power and presence of the Holy Spirit by which Peter was able to speak in faith his proclamation of Jesus' identity.

Remember that shortly thereafter Peter spoke with SATANIC unction about Jesus' death.

Mem · Sep 22, 2022

arthurfleminger said:

Jesus spoke directly to Peter in Matthew 18:21 when he asked, "how many times must I forgive my brother who sins against me, seven times?" Surely you don't consider Jesus' answer, "I tell you, not just seven times, but seventy-seven times!" applicable only to Peter?

pottersclay · Sep 22, 2022

Cameron143 said:

Jesus wasn't as understanding as you are concerning the nation of Israel and their unbelief. A good example is found in John chapter 3 in his conversation with Nicodemus as He explains the second birth. In verse 10:
"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"
In fact throughout the gospel of John Jesus is continually correcting the nation of Israel for its poor understanding.
Chap 2...they wanted to make Him king of an earthly kingdom but He refused
Chap 3...we already mentioned the spiritual birth vs the natural birth.
Chap 4...the woman at the well who asks about the location of worship and Jesus teaches her about the who and how of worship.
Chap 5...He shares with the disciples about spiritual food vs earthly food.
Chap 6...He tells the crowd that the work of God is found in faith and believing not the law.
None of this was new. It was all found in OT scripture. They simply had missed it.
Even that we are to love our neighbors is found in the OT in Leviticus 19:17-18.
So while it was a dangerous time to be a Christian in a Jewish culture, it was only so because they had so polluted the teaching of the scriptures with their own version of it.

Absolutely that is my point. Many of the responces and statements in the gospel are not understood because many do not know the culture and times of the day.

Cameron143 · Sep 22, 2022

pottersclay said:

I appreciate you taking the time to clear up your point. My only point was that the Jewish faith had become perverted that commandments of men were being taught as the commandments of God and this is what led to the misunderstanding among the people of the nation. When Jesus expounded the teaching of scripture to them they resisted rather than rejoice.
In the sermon on the mount there is no new teaching...only the correct teaching of what was already widely known.

Mem · Sep 22, 2022

Cameron143 said:

They wanted to make Him king of their will and were accusing Him of doing exactly what they were doing. After all, if Jesus was guilty of 'blasphemy,' it was speaking against "their will." they were oblivious that they had made idols of their ideas of Who God should be, and his actual character, which is manifest in Jesus. Paraphrasing what Jesus said, 'if this kingdom were of this world, my servants would fight for me..." however, these people expected that He should "fight" for them. They did not trust that is exactly what His mission, to die for them.

Cameron143 · Sep 22, 2022

Mem said:

They wanted to make Him king of their will and were accusing Him of doing exactly what they were doing. After all, if Jesus was guilty of 'blasphemy,' it was speaking against "their will." they were oblivious that they had made idols of their ideas of Who God should be, and his actual character, which is manifest in Jesus. Paraphrasing what Jesus said, 'if this kingdom were of this world, my servants would fight for me..." however, these people expected that He should "fight" for them. They did not trust that is exactly what His mission, to die for them.

Are you expounding or correcting?

Mem · Sep 22, 2022

Cameron143 said:

expounding on Chap 2 per his refusal to 'submit to their will for Him'

Cameron143 · Sep 22, 2022

Mem said:

Ok. Thanks

Randy4u2c · Oct 3, 2022

Cameron143 said:

When Peter was asked by Jesus whom do you think I am, Peter replied, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus replied that "upon this rock I will build my church." Peter's confession that Jesus was the Christ is the foundation to which Jesus referred, not to Peter himself.

Pray_without_ceasing · Oct 3, 2022

Cameron143 said:

Other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. He is the rock. Because the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth, is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: in whom they also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. It is also written in the prophets, behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation. May God have mercy on the catholics and lead them to the truth. Because he is a God who is ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness. His mercy endureth for ever.

Cameron143 · Oct 3, 2022

Pray_without_ceasing said:

Other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. He is the rock. Because the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth, is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: in whom they also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. It is also written in the prophets, behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation. May God have mercy on the catholics and lead them to the truth. Because he is a God who is ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness. His mercy endureth for ever.

Thanks for taking the time to respond

Ted01 · Oct 3, 2022

Dwayne Johnson - Wikipedia

DJT_47 · Oct 27, 2022

A repost of mine from another forum that covers this subject and more.

Matthew 16 analysis - Peter being the first so-called pope and provided with the keys of the kingdom

Matthew 16:15-19 - Catholics erroneously use these verses, and primarily verse 19, as rationale and justification for claiming Peter was established thereby as the first pope. However, when you read and study these scriptures closely along with others related thereto, you clearly find that is not the case nor is the logic sound.

When linked with Matthew 18:18, Acts 2, Acts 10, and Acts 11, you get the complete and true understanding of the aforementioned Matthew 16 verses. Note Matthew 16:15-19 below:

15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Establishment of the church, the earthly kingdom - First of all in the above scripture, notice it says "keys of the kingdom of heaven" and not "to the kingdom of heaven" which is of significance and often glossed-over by most, with "to" being superimposed for “of”. The word "of" means, 'origin', 'connected to', 'belonging to', from' or "pertaining to', whereas 'to' infers 'direction', 'going toward' or 'entry into'; "to" therefore would imply entry into the kingdom whereas "of" would imply the keys are not for entry, but rather, originating from, for, or emanating and/or coming from the kingdom; the origin of the keys being the kingdom of heaven.

Peter was entrusted with the "keys of the kingdom of heaven”, not 'keys to’ the kingdom of heaven or simply for the means of entry into it, and was empowered or sanctioned by heaven as confirmed by the Holy Ghost (Acts 2 and 10), with authority to bind his actions as well. The same words almost verbatim are used in Matthew 18:18-19, providing all of the Lord's disciples with authority likewise to bind on earth, however the reasons were different for this authority which excluded the "keys of the kingdom", and the authority was provided to all the disciples (ye, in the original Greek) as opposed to just Peter (thee per the original Greek) in Matthew 16.

When you consider or link Matthew 16 as relates to Peter and "the keys of the kingdom" with the book of Acts, you find that Peter was the one responsible for establishing the church, the earthly kingdom, first amongst the Jews at Jerusalem (Acts2), and then amongst the Gentiles commencing with the conversion of Cornelius (Acts 10), which action he then defended to the council at Jerusalem in Acts 11. Peter being the one that established the early church, is therefore validation of Matthew 16 and the Lord’s unique statement to him, creating the setting and providing him with the opportunity, wherewithal, and confirmation by heaven via the Holy Ghost to do so (collectively, “the keys”). Note too, that the Holy Ghost falling on individuals uniquely as it did on both occasions, were the only times recorded in the bible for such happening in the manner it did. Both events, that of Acts 2 and Acts 10, were done with heavenly power and authority as noted above, since in both cases, the Holy Ghost demonstrated said power and authority by its physical presence, falling on individuals in both cases as a sign to those present, giving validity to, and substantiation from heaven of Peter’s actions, consistent with the use of the word “of” in Matthew 16:19.

The rock - In Matthew 16:18, it's obvious that Peter isn't the rock but rather Christ is, since he is recognized as being the chief cornerstone and/or foundation per the scriptures (Ephesians 2:20, Psalm 118:22-23, Isaiah 28:16, Matthew 21:42-44, 1Cor 3:11, Acts 4:11). Also, Peter in Greek is 'Petros' Πέτρος or Cephas, [masculine gender in the Greek meaning a stone or boulder (Strong's), or rock, individual stone, more insecure or moveable], and the “rock” in Matthew 16:18 is “petra”, πέτρα (feminine gender in the Greek), being rock, cliff, solid formation, solid foundation, bedrock, large rock formation, immoveable and enduring. Also, the church is referred to as being the “bride”, “chaste virgin”, “her” (feminine), etc., and Christ being the bridegroom, which further substantiates the use of “petra” rather than “petros”. If Christ's intent was to build his church upon Peter, why wouldn't he have said "and upon you I will build my church", or “upon petros, or you, Petros I will build my church” and not "upon this rock" (petra)? Also note that if Peter was established as the so-called first pope and head of the church (as erroneously claimed by Catholics), 1. Why did the Lord say “get thee behind me Satan” to him in Matthew 16:23? and 2. Why did the disciples quarrel amongst themselves (Luke 9:46) as to who would be the greatest among them, which occurred AFTER Peter’s statement as to who Jesus was (Luke 9:20 and parallel verse Mat 16:16)? and 3. Why was there contention between Peter and Paul as recorded in Acts 15:2 and Gal 2:11-14 if Peter was the head of the church? and 4. Why did the council at Jerusalem send Peter and John to Samaria (Acts8:14) if Peter was the head of the church, yet taking direction from the council at Jerusalem? Also note that no man (in a religious sense, Mat 23:8-9), is to be called father on earth, yet the pope is commonly referred to as the “Holy Father”. And too, Christ is the head of the church which is his body, not Peter (Eph 5:23, Col 1

πέτρα | billmounce.com

a rock, Mt. 7:24, 25; met. Rom. 9:33; 1 Pet. 2:8; crags, clefts, Rev. 6:15, 16; stony ground, Lk. 8:6, 13

Cameron143 · Oct 27, 2022

Ted01 said:

I missed this the first time through. Well played.

oyster67 · Oct 27, 2022

Cameron143 said:

Jesus is referring to what Peter just said:
Matthew 16:16
“And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

That statement proclaims that Jesus is the Rock.

Cameron143 · Oct 27, 2022

oyster67 said:

Thanks for taking the time to share.

Researcher · Nov 12, 2022

I have not read this entire thread, so I hope I am not being redundant.

Although Jesus is often referred to as a 'Rock' in Scripture, the ultimate meaning of the word 'Rock' is Seed. In the case of Jesus, it is referring to the Rock of Abraham, or Abraham's Seed...

Isaiah 51:1 - "Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged."

Isaiah 51:2 - "Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him."

We all become Abraham's Seed. It is the 'White Stone' with a new name on it.

Who or what is the rock?

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