"The rich man And Lazarus..."

On the point of the souls of unsaved people being spiritually dead, that's accurate. He didn't say unsaved people can't talk.

Where do you see an account of someone who isn't saved, who died in their sins, speaking? If you say the rich man and Lazarus story, then can you provide an additional passage to support that? That would help the case of seeing it as a non-parable.

As far as the story of Samuel and Saul, the Old Testament forbids necromancy and it isn't proof Samuel wasn't saved.

The rich man in that story speak

Well we are on page 20 and your comment would hold weight if anyone had proved this isn't a parable. Carry on.

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• John 3:16 . . For God so loved the world, that he gave His only begotten
Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting
life.

The love in that passage is translated from a Greek verb that expresses
compassion for the world without particularly liking anybody. In other
words: that kind of love is civil and sympathetic but doesn't necessarily
express fondness or affection.

God in His wrath condemns folks to the fiery netherworld while at the same
time feeling pity for them? But justice is justice; and God forbid that He be
one to obstruct it by letting His feelings overrule the facts.
_

true, and the word perish means “destroy utterly” as opposed to those who have everlasting life who are not destroyed in any way. The unsaved are destroyed body, soul, and spirit. If anything remains of the unsaved then they weren’t utterly destroyed.

“Fear Him who is able to destroy body and soul in hell…” because that’s the alternative to everlasting life.

Never said, nor suggested Samuel wasn't saved.

Only that the physically dead were held in Hades/Sheol and conscious. The unsaved dead remain in Hades/Sheol. The saved dead, and those who have died since Jesus' Resurrection, are with Him now.
Precisely what you have asked for. The unsaved dead, held in Hades/Sheol, speaking.


Isaiah 14:9-11

New King James Version

9 “Hell (SHEOL/HADES) from beneath is excited about you,
To meet you at your coming;
It stirs up the dead for you,
All the chief ones of the earth;
It has raised up from their thrones
All the kings of the nations.
10 They all shall speak and say to you:
‘Have you also become as weak as we?
Have you become like us?
11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,
And the sound of your stringed instruments;
The maggot is spread under you,
And worms cover you.’

In regards to the rich man and Lazarus parable, it doesn’t say it’s a place of torment. Nor is it clear that the Isaiah 14 passage above is literal. I mean it talks about the sound of their stringed instruments coming with them, possibly a reference to the wealthy burying possessions with them. I don’t know if a clear reason to take that literally.

Other references to worms and a tomb in this chapter mean this is talking about a literal grave. Isaiah seems to be using allegorical language.

Finally, it doesn’t say they are the unsaved dead.

Matthew 26:39
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Matthew 26:42
He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
Revelation 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Luke 22:44
And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Jesus drank the cup of the wrath of God.

Enlarging font size doesn't do anything; I can read. Why do you refuse to address/harmonize all scriptures beginning in the OT. Don't be selective.

From bible program:

AndG2532 inG1722 hellG86 he lift upG1869 hisG848 eyes,G3788 beingG5225 inG1722 torments,G931 and seethG3708 AbrahamG11 afar off,G575 G3113 andG2532 LazarusG2976 inG1722 hisG846 bosom.G2859

What does hellG86 actually mean as defined by the bible. First start in the OT, then move into the NT.

Hell/sheol/hades, all have the same meaning which is the pit or the grave; the place of the dead. This isn't just made through my own consciousness, other people have done the work and we have the luxury of opening free bible programs and looking it up.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g86/kjv/lxx/0-1/#lexResults

Isaiah 50:5-9, speaking of Christ:

The Lord God has opened My ear;
And I was not rebellious,
Nor did I turn away.
6 I gave My back to those who struck Me,
And My cheeks to those who plucked out the beard;
I did not hide My face from shame and spitting.

7 “For the Lord God will help Me (the meaning of Lazarus);
Therefore I will not be disgraced;
Therefore I have set My face like a flint,
And I know that I will not be ashamed.
8 He is near who justifies Me;
Who will contend with Me?
Let us stand together.
Who is [a]My adversary?
Let him come near Me.
9 Surely the Lord God will help Me (Lazarus);
Who is he who will condemn Me?
Indeed they will all grow old like a garment;
The moth will eat them up.

Isaiah 38:10,11, 17,18
I said,
“In the prime of my life
I shall go to the gates of Sheol;
I am deprived of the remainder of my years.”
11 I said,
“I shall not see Yah,
The Lord in the land of the living;
I shall observe man no more [c]among the inhabitants of [d]the world.

Indeed it was for my own peace
That I had great bitterness;
But You have lovingly delivered my soul from the pit of corruption,
For You have cast all my sins behind Your back.
18 For Sheol cannot thank You,
Death cannot praise You;
Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth.

I'm not trying to be rude, but you cannot have a strict literal reading at all times; you need to allow the writer whether that is the prophets, Jesus, or the apostles to use various literary styles of writing, which could be literal, metaphor, hyperbole, Hebrew Parallelism, poetry, allegory, parable etc.

When Jesus says "I am the door"(John 10:9), does that mean he is two pieces of plywood slapped together; of course not.

Was Abel's voice literally crying out from the ground; or is it being used as a metaphor?

Genesis 4:9-10
9 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?”
He said, “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?”
10 And He said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries out to Me from the ground.

You need to define terms in the OT first before you try and interpret the NT. What is the fire of god; how is it described in the bible:

Jer 4:4
Circumcise yourselves to the Lord,
And take away the foreskins of your hearts,
You men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem,
Lest My fury come forth like fire,
And burn so that no one can quench it,
Because of the evil of your doings.”

Jer7:31-33
31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart.

32 “Therefore behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord, “when it will no more be called Tophet, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Tophet until there is no room. 33 The corpses of this people will be food for the birds of the heaven and for the beasts of the earth. And no one will frighten them away.

Jeremiah 17:27

27 “But if you will not heed Me to hallow the Sabbath day, such as not carrying a burden when entering the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, then I will kindle a fire in its gates, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.” ’ ”

Jude 7

7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the [a]vengeance of eternal fire.

Question, is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning today? Can you fly over there and see the city still burning, no. So then what does "eternal fire" or "fire that cannot be quenched" actually mean? It means to be consumed, turned to ash, turned to nothingness, and it will not be stopped; it is permanent.

1 Kings 18:38, the fire from God, isn't the same as human concept of fire that goes up; the fire of God comes down and it burns up everything, even the stones. These examples are for our learning to understand what this things mean.

Then the fire of the Lord fell and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood and the stones and the dust, and it licked up the water that was in the trench. 39 Now when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces; and they said, “The Lord, He is God! The Lord, He is God!”

We cannot just ignore everything described in the OT and selectively choose to apply it when it favors our beliefs and ignore it when it doesn't. I will say it again, if you don't understand the terminology that is defined in the OT or the OT prophesies before coming to the NT, then you will not understand the parable of the Rich man and all the symbolize Jesus uses to his Jewish audience (who were saturated in the OT). I was one of those people who filled my beliefs with assumptions because I didn't have the background knowledge until someone pointed it out to me.

Verse in question:
Luke 23:43
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

What you probably don't know (my assumption). Greek has no punctuation. This is another example of translator bias to fit the grammar with their preconceived theological position.

You can translate this verse two ways and both would be technically correct grammatically:

1. And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
2. And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.”

The difference is the placement of the comma. If like many translations you place the comma before the word today, then when we read it in English is sounds like Jesus is promising the thief that on that very day 2,000 years ago the thief would be with him in paradise on that very day.

If however, you place the comma after the word today, then Jesus is promising the thief on that day 2,000 years ago that the thief WILL BE (future) with Him in Paradise.

Second problem is your understanding of the word Paradise; it means a lush garden.

G3857 matches the Greek παράδεισος (paradeisos),

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g3857/kjv/tr/0-1/

Gen2:8
And the LORD God planted a garden (paradeisos) eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Gen 3:24
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden (paradeisos) of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Ez 28:13
Thou hast been in Eden the garden (paradeisos) of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Rev 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise (paradesisos) of God.

The tree of life was here on earth in which Adam was kicked out from least he eat and live forever. The paradise (Garden) of God is in the future Kingdom where it grow 12 fruits, one for each month in Jerusalem (Ez 47:1-12 ->Rev 22:1-3)

Third, the context of the promise made to the thief is based upon the thief's knowledge of the future kingdom, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” The thief wasn't talking about ascending to heaven upon death; he was speaking of Christ second coming and the resurrection of the dead.

Hope this helps, helped me a lot when someone explained it to me.

How dare you use the bible to disprove the immortality of the soul doctrine; you're not allowed to do that (joking sarcasm).

1 Timothy 1:17

17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to [a]God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

1 Timoth 6:13-16
I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only [e]Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

John 1:18
8 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten [h]Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Parable or not, it doesnt make different
if the unsaved death do not speak why it speak in parable ?

par·a·ble
[ˈperəb(ə)l]

NOUN
parables (plural noun)

1. a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus in the Gospels

Did Abel's blood literally cry out? Or is it being used as a metaphor?

Genesis 4:9-10
9 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?”
He said, “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?”
10 And He said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries out to Me from the ground.

We need to allow the writer whether that is the prophets, Jesus, or the apostles to use various literary styles of writing, which could be literal, metaphor, hyperbole, Hebrew Parallelism, poetry, allegory, parable etc. We cannot just assume everything is literal historical events.

That is the point of a parable, to tell a story to an audience that describes something. By the very nature of what a parable is; it shouldn't be taken literal.

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The passage below is deliberately misquoted for a purpose. Watch for the
revision.

"Fear Him who is able to destroy body, soul, and spirit in hell"

This next passage is also deliberately misquoted.

"I pray God your whole soul and body be preserved blameless unto the
coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

In the first misquote, the word "spirit" was inserted while in the second
misquote, spirit was deleted. I did that purposely to point out that quite a
few folks are unaware that human life consists of not just body and soul, but
also spirit.

The dead body of the rich man depicted in Luke 16:19-31 was buried, but he
retained his soul and spirit in the afterlife. Those two elements of human
existence are transferrable; i.e. the rich man-- as well as Abraham and
Lazarus --has a temporary afterlife body about which we know very little
other than it's sentient, i.e. it has eyes and a tongue, plus is able to hear
speech and feel pain and thirst.

The hell spoken of in Matthew 5:28 is often assumed the same hell spoken
of in Luke 16:13, but the Greek word in Luke is a different word than
that of Matthew. The hell in Luke is a nondescript word for the afterlife,
whereas the hell in Matthew specifically relates to fire. Ergo: the hell that
destroys the soul is yet to come. I am thus far unaware of a hell that destroys
the spirit.
_

So

it do not say if the real not speak, parable speak

abel‘s blood metaphor for his soul
anyway it do not prove soul not speak

Who told you that souls become dead? The devil.

The Bible never needs to "prove itself", as you insist.

Jesus' story is plenty enough.

Of course Samuel was saved. He was God's prophet to Saul.

Even though God forbade it because it involved demonic activities, in that special case, God DID call Samuel back to give Saul one last message.

Know what Samuel told Saul? After telling Saul he screwed up big time by going to a medium, he told Saul that Saul and his sons would be WITH HIM tomorrow. Meaning that Saul would die and join Samuel.

Proving that Saul was saved.