Romans 7:14-25, Do the unregenerate have inner conflict about God's law?

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Ethan1942

Active member
Jul 23, 2022
205
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#1
To state a fundamental and basic rule of interpretation: "Simplicity and Naturalness - Presumably the meaning of almost any passage was simple to the writer; otherwise, he would have attempted to simplify it by explanation or further development. The correct interpretation will therefore be a simple one, and any very intricate or devious method of interpretation may be reasonably suspected of error.....Rule: -- —The simplest and most natural interpretation of a passage must be preferred." pages 79, 81, Principles of Interpretation, Clinton Lockhart, Second Edition 1915.
https://icotb.org/resources/PrinciplesofInterpretation.pdf

Verses 7-13 in chapter 7 are written in the past tense, then in 14-25 Paul clearly switches to the present tense. The NRSV labels vs7-13 as "The Law and Sin" and vs14-25 as "The Inner Conflict". Is the "Inner Conflict" that of a regenerated person, as the present tense would indicate as Paul writes it, and Christians experience it? That is indeed the natural and simple reading of the text. Yet, there are those who bring up the idea in grammar of a "historical present" which is defined as "the present tense used in narrating a past event as if happening at the time of narration". There are instances in the NT Greek of the historical present, mainly in the gospels but they are found in 1-3 verse passages, not passages making up almost half of a chapter. There is no reason in the context to make vs 14-25 a historical present. In English translations, the historical present is rendered as the simple past tense, and no English translation I've seen renders vs14-25 in the past tense. It violates a rule of interpretation to make one tense stand for another:

"No one of these tenses, strictly and properly taken, can stand for another, as commentators often would have us believe. But where such an interchange appears to take place, either it is merely apparent, and a sufficient reason (especially a rhetorical one) can be discovered why this and no other tense has been used, or it is to be set down to the account of a certain inaccuracy peculiar to the language of the people, which did not conceive and express relations of time with entire precision." page 209
Biblical Hermeneutics, A Treatise on the Interpretation of the Old and New Testaments by Milton S. Terry, copyright 1883
http://www.thestairview.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/milton_terry_biblicalhermeneutics.pdf

The only reason to twist Scripture and add complicated theological arguments to the plain statements of the Scripture is to prop up an error in doctrine already locked into. Seemingly, in this passage it is to save the error of some type of perfectionism or total sanctification. V14 is therefore said to not describe a regenerate person. John Gill points out that the context surely cannot refer to the unregenerate:

"...several things which are said by the apostle can neither agree with him, nor any other, but as regenerate; such as to 'hate evil', 'delight in the law of God', and 'serve it with the mind', Ro 7:15. Moreover, the distinctions between flesh and spirit, the inward and the outward man, and the struggle there is between them, are to be found in none but regenerate persons; and to say no more, the thanksgiving for deliverance from sin by Christ can only come from such..."

Paul elsewhere is writing to the brethren when he states, "But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another." (Gal 5:15, ERV) That describes very carnal conduct by Christians. Paul continues, "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would." (Gal 5:17, ERV) and that is stating the same in parallel as in Rom. 7:14-25.

When is total sanctification, full righteousness, sinless perfection to be found?

"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who will also do it." (1Thess 5:23-24, ERV)

"But, in accordance with his promise, we wait for new heavens and a new earth, where righteousness is at home." (2Pet 3:13, NRSV) and from the RWP on this verse:

"Dwelleth (κατοικε). Has its home (οικος). Certainly "righteousness" (δικαιοσυνη) is not at home in this present world either in individuals, families, or nations."

The idea that Christians in this life can be fully sanctified or sinlessly perfect is contradicted by the Scriptures:

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1John 1:8, NRSV)

"Surely there is no one on earth so righteous as to do good without ever sinning." (Eccl 7:20, NRSV)

"If you, O LORD, should mark iniquities, Lord, who could stand?" (Ps 130:3, NRSV)

In the stereotyped vice lists of Paul, which show those worthy of death and those barred from the kingdom of God, you not only find murderers, adulterers and sodomites; you also find sins and sinners such as gossips, envy, boastful, foolish, greedy, strife, quarrels. It seems that those claiming sinless perfection or total sanctification have a very shallow view of sin and feel good not to be a murderer, adulterer or sodomite, while often being guilty of some others that are equally condemned and worthy of death.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,718
29,073
113
#2
Paul elsewhere is writing to the brethren when he states, "But if ye bite and devour one another,
take heed that ye be not consumed one of another." (Gal 5:15, ERV) That describes very carnal
conduct by Christians. Paul continues, "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit
against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things
that ye would.
" (Gal 5:17, ERV) and that is stating the same in parallel as in Rom. 7:14-25.

Galatians 5:14-15~ The entire law is fulfilled in a single decree: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
But if you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out, or you will be consumed by one another.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,879
5,623
113
#3
To state a fundamental and basic rule of interpretation: "Simplicity and Naturalness - Presumably the meaning of almost any passage was simple to the writer; otherwise, he would have attempted to simplify it by explanation or further development. The correct interpretation will therefore be a simple one, and any very intricate or devious method of interpretation may be reasonably suspected of error.....Rule: -- —The simplest and most natural interpretation of a passage must be preferred." pages 79, 81, Principles of Interpretation, Clinton Lockhart, Second Edition 1915.
https://icotb.org/resources/PrinciplesofInterpretation.pdf

Verses 7-13 in chapter 7 are written in the past tense, then in 14-25 Paul clearly switches to the present tense. The NRSV labels vs7-13 as "The Law and Sin" and vs14-25 as "The Inner Conflict". Is the "Inner Conflict" that of a regenerated person, as the present tense would indicate as Paul writes it, and Christians experience it? That is indeed the natural and simple reading of the text. Yet, there are those who bring up the idea in grammar of a "historical present" which is defined as "the present tense used in narrating a past event as if happening at the time of narration". There are instances in the NT Greek of the historical present, mainly in the gospels but they are found in 1-3 verse passages, not passages making up almost half of a chapter. There is no reason in the context to make vs 14-25 a historical present. In English translations, the historical present is rendered as the simple past tense, and no English translation I've seen renders vs14-25 in the past tense. It violates a rule of interpretation to make one tense stand for another:

"No one of these tenses, strictly and properly taken, can stand for another, as commentators often would have us believe. But where such an interchange appears to take place, either it is merely apparent, and a sufficient reason (especially a rhetorical one) can be discovered why this and no other tense has been used, or it is to be set down to the account of a certain inaccuracy peculiar to the language of the people, which did not conceive and express relations of time with entire precision." page 209
Biblical Hermeneutics, A Treatise on the Interpretation of the Old and New Testaments by Milton S. Terry, copyright 1883
http://www.thestairview.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/milton_terry_biblicalhermeneutics.pdf

The only reason to twist Scripture and add complicated theological arguments to the plain statements of the Scripture is to prop up an error in doctrine already locked into. Seemingly, in this passage it is to save the error of some type of perfectionism or total sanctification. V14 is therefore said to not describe a regenerate person. John Gill points out that the context surely cannot refer to the unregenerate:

"...several things which are said by the apostle can neither agree with him, nor any other, but as regenerate; such as to 'hate evil', 'delight in the law of God', and 'serve it with the mind', Ro 7:15. Moreover, the distinctions between flesh and spirit, the inward and the outward man, and the struggle there is between them, are to be found in none but regenerate persons; and to say no more, the thanksgiving for deliverance from sin by Christ can only come from such..."

Paul elsewhere is writing to the brethren when he states, "But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another." (Gal 5:15, ERV) That describes very carnal conduct by Christians. Paul continues, "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would." (Gal 5:17, ERV) and that is stating the same in parallel as in Rom. 7:14-25.

When is total sanctification, full righteousness, sinless perfection to be found?

"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who will also do it." (1Thess 5:23-24, ERV)

"But, in accordance with his promise, we wait for new heavens and a new earth, where righteousness is at home." (2Pet 3:13, NRSV) and from the RWP on this verse:

"Dwelleth (κατοικε). Has its home (οικος). Certainly "righteousness" (δικαιοσυνη) is not at home in this present world either in individuals, families, or nations."

The idea that Christians in this life can be fully sanctified or sinlessly perfect is contradicted by the Scriptures:

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1John 1:8, NRSV)

"Surely there is no one on earth so righteous as to do good without ever sinning." (Eccl 7:20, NRSV)

"If you, O LORD, should mark iniquities, Lord, who could stand?" (Ps 130:3, NRSV)

In the stereotyped vice lists of Paul, which show those worthy of death and those barred from the kingdom of God, you not only find murderers, adulterers and sodomites; you also find sins and sinners such as gossips, envy, boastful, foolish, greedy, strife, quarrels. It seems that those claiming sinless perfection or total sanctification have a very shallow view of sin and feel good not to be a murderer, adulterer or sodomite, while often being guilty of some others that are equally condemned and worthy of death.
What do you mean by Gods law ?

are you talking about Moses law ? Or the gospel ? Remember well after the law of Moses had been given and ordained God was making a promise to come later and speak his law and judgements

I’m curious if your talking about the covenant law given through Moses ? When you say “Gods law “


I think what your saying I could be wrong but I think what your getting at is this relationship

“Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭13:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul’s explaining if we say I love people but yet we are doing evil against them it’s not love because love is not a feeling it’s an action

if I love you I’m never going to kill you , steal from you , lie to you , cheat you ect

the commandments were about sin when we say we aren’t under the law the is one no way gives us the right to now sin against people we still aren’t allowed to lie Christ and steal kill and commit adultery ect

the key is going to Jesus and learning what he taught if we do this Jesus is never ever going to teach us to lie , cheat , steal , commit adultery ect he’s going to teach us to walk upright and pleasing lives to the lord and to love each other nd in that case we no longer need anyone to tell us “ don’t kill “ because those commands are for these folk that need to hear them

“knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the morality found in the law regarding sin remains the same Moses le doent allow Murder the gospe doesn’t either but the word is different one word is meant to show us sin and it’s result death

the other word is meant to redeem us from sin and impart the righteousness of God into moot hearts and minds so we no longer need the figures on stone we have the reality in our new heart and mknd written by the hand of God whom is within us

it’s matter of what Moses said versus what Christ said neither testament allows us to live in sin

one is made to show us we are sinners and will die if we don’t repent the other is to save us from that state and bring us to repentance so we will live

the gospel doesn’t allow for us to sin but it does offer repentance when we have sinned and offers Gods teachings that give life and rebirth and redemption from the wickedness in tbe world

we can’t change by being told as sinners “ don’t sin or you must be executed by the others “ that can never ever save a sinner

but we will change if we hear the gospel and begin to let Gods word correct our thinking and make us strong against sins temptations

it’s just a matter of ordination and purpose between the Old Testament meant to impute sins against us and new testsment wich is meant to call us to repentance and offer remission of sins

the morality is the same , how we serve God is completely different
 

Saul-to-Paul

Junior Member
Jun 5, 2017
403
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#4
The idea that Christians in this life can be fully sanctified or sinlessly perfect is contradicted by the Scriptures:
1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,718
29,073
113
#5
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1John 1:8, NRSV)

1 John 1:8-10~ If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the Truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His Word is not in us.:)
 

Aussie52

Active member
Aug 31, 2022
159
149
43
#6
I see Romans 7 as a battle of a Christian trying to keep the Law by self effort and the failure that results.
The answer to the conflict is in Romans 8, where by the Spirit we fulfil the Law.
 

Saul-to-Paul

Junior Member
Jun 5, 2017
403
71
28
#7
I see Romans 7 as a battle of a Christian trying to keep the Law by self effort and the failure that results.
The answer to the conflict is in Romans 8, where by the Spirit we fulfil the Law.
Nope. The answer is within the verse.
1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,769
113
#8
Verses 7-13 in chapter 7 are written in the past tense, then in 14-25 Paul clearly switches to the present tense. The NRSV labels vs7-13 as "The Law and Sin" and vs14-25 as "The Inner Conflict". Is the "Inner Conflict" that of a regenerated person, as the present tense would indicate as Paul writes it, and Christians experience it?
Romans 7 is addressed to Christians. But since the unregenerate also have a conscience, they are not free from conflict between right and wrong. See Romans 2.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#9
Do the unregenerate have inner conflict about God's law?

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
 

Ethan1942

Active member
Jul 23, 2022
205
88
28
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#10
Nope. The answer is within the verse.
1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
You do NOT arrive at truth by introducing man-made contradictions into God's word!

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1John 3:9, KJV)

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1Jn 1:8 KJV)

Robertson's Word Pictures on 1 John 3:9 -

Doeth no sin (αμαρτιαν ου ποιε). Linear present active indicative as in verse 4 like αμαρτανε in verse 8. The child of God does not have the habit of sin.

His seed (σπερμα αυτου). God's seed, "the divine principle of life" (Vincent). Cf. Joh 1.

And he cannot sin (κα ου δυνατα αμαρτανειν). This is a wrong translation, for this English naturally means "and he cannot commit sin" as if it were κα ου δυνατα αμαρτειν or αμαρτησα (second aorist or first aorist active infinitive). The present active infinitive αμαρτανειν can only mean "and he cannot go on sinning," as is true of αμαρτανε in verse 8 and αμαρτανων in verse 6. For the aorist subjunctive to commit a sin see αμαρτητε and αμαρτη in 2:1. A great deal of false theology has grown out of a misunderstanding of the tense of αμαρτανειν here. Paul has precisely John's idea in Ro 6:1 επιμενωμεν τη αμαρτια (shall we continue in sin, present active linear subjunctive) in contrast with αμαρτησωμεν in Ro 6:15 (shall we commit a sin, first aorist active subjunctive).

NET Bible TN & SN on 1 John 3:9 -

tn The problem of the present tense of ποιεῖ (poiei) here is exactly that of the present tense of ἁμαρτάνει (Jamartanei) in 3:6. Here in 3:9 the distinction is sharply drawn between “the one who practices sin” in 3:8, who is of the devil, and “the one who is fathered by God” in 3:9, who “does not practice sin.” See S. Kubo (“I John 3:9: Absolute or Habitual?” AUSS 7 [1969]: 47-56) for a fuller discussion of the author’s argument as based on a sharp antithesis between the recipients (true Christians) and the opponents (heretics).
sn Does not practice sin. Again, as in 3:6, the author is making a clear distinction between the opponents, who as moral indifferentists downplay the significance of sin in the life of the Christian, and the recipients, who as true Christians recognize the significance of sin because Jesus came to take it away (3:5) and to destroy it as a work of the devil (3:8). This explanation still has to deal with the apparent contradiction between the author’s statements in 2:1-2 and those here in 3:9, but this is best explained in terms of the author’s tendency to present issues in “either/or” terms to bring out the drastic contrast between his readers, whom he regards as true believers, and the opponents, whom he regards as false. In 2:1-2 the author can acknowledge the possibility that a true Christian might on occasion sin, because in this context he wishes to reassure his readers that the statements he has made about the opponents in the preceding context do not apply to them. But in 3:4-10, his concern is to bring out the absolute difference between the opponents and his readers, so he speaks in theoretical terms which do not discuss the possible occasional exception, because to do so would weaken his argument.
tn Both the first and second ὅτι (Joti) in 3:9 are causal. The first gives the reason why the person who is begotten by God does not practice sin (“because his seed resides in him).” The second gives the reason why the person who is begotten by God is not able to sin (“because he has been begotten by God).”

More understandable translations in the English of today on 1 John 3:9 -

"No one who is a child of God is habitually guilty of sin. A God-given germ of life remains in him, and he cannot habitually sin--because he is a child of God." (1Jn 3:9 Weymouth)

"No one who is born of God makes a practice of sinning, because the God-given life-principle continues to live in him, and so he cannot practice sinning, because he is born of God." (1Jn 3:9 Williams)

"People conceived and brought into life by God don't make a practice of sin. How could they? God's seed is deep within them, making them who they are. It's not in the nature of the God-begotten to practice and parade sin." (1Jn 3:9 The Message)

There is no longer a man-made contradiction with 1 John 1:8 -

"If we claim to be already free from sin, we lead ourselves astray and the truth has no place in our hearts." (1Jn 1:8 Weymouth)

"If we claim "We are already free from sin," we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in our hearts." (1Jn 1:8 Williams)

"If we claim that we're free of sin, we're only fooling ourselves. A claim like that is errant nonsense." (1Jn 1:8 MSG)
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#11
Nope. The answer is within the verse.
1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Anyone who knows anything about context of the rest of Scripture knows exactly what that means. It is speaking of not willfully living a lifestyle of sin like we did before we were born again. The Bible is clear about the fact that our glorification is yet future. We are justified by the Blood of Jesus, not by any kind of personal perfection. God sees us through the lens of His Son's blood. That is the only sense in which He sees perfection.
 

Saul-to-Paul

Junior Member
Jun 5, 2017
403
71
28
#12
Anyone who knows anything about context of the rest of Scripture knows exactly what that means. It is speaking of not willfully living a lifestyle of sin like we did before we were born again. The Bible is clear about the fact that our glorification is yet future. We are justified by the Blood of Jesus, not by any kind of personal perfection. God sees us through the lens of His Son's blood. That is the only sense in which He sees perfection.
Nope. Self interpretations is why people believe in a 3 minded god.
 

Saul-to-Paul

Junior Member
Jun 5, 2017
403
71
28
#13
Robertson's Word Pictures on 1 John 3:9 -

Doeth no sin (αμαρτιαν ου ποιε). Linear present active indicative as in verse 4 like αμαρτανε in verse 8. The child of God does not have the habit of sin.
Nope. Do your own studies.

Mark 2:22, KJV: And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.
 

Saul-to-Paul

Junior Member
Jun 5, 2017
403
71
28
#14
"No one who is a child of God is habitually guilty of sin. A God-given germ of life remains in him, and he cannot habitually sin--because he is a child of God." (1Jn 3:9 Weymouth)

"No one who is born of God makes a practice of sinning, because the God-given life-principle continues to live in him, and so he cannot practice sinning, because he is born of God." (1Jn 3:9 Williams)

"People conceived and brought into life by God don't make a practice of sin. How could they? God's seed is deep within them, making them who they are. It's not in the nature of the God-begotten to practice and parade sin." (1Jn 3:9 The Message)

Bold garbage because that's not what the Bible says.
 
P

persistent

Guest
#15
From the lips of someone that sounds to me to be unregenerate, that is the notorious serial killer Geoffrey Dahmer, "I wish they had caught me sooner", or words to that effect. Maybe he did have inner conflict, albeit "unknowingly". I look back and see a lot of what I experienced before accepting Jesus as my savior could be called inner conflict. And when I read the Psalms, particularly where it talks about "....my sin is ever before me." Ps 51:3 or (Psalms 38:12-18) "They also that seek after my life lay snares for me: and they that seek my hurt speak mischievous things, and imagine deceits all the day long. {13} But I, as a deaf man, heard not; and I was as a dumb man that openeth not his mouth. {14} Thus I was as a man that heareth not, and in whose mouth are no reproofs. {15} For in thee, O LORD, do I hope: thou wilt hear, O Lord my God. {16} For I said, Hear me, lest otherwise they should rejoice over me: when my foot slippeth, they magnify themselves against me. {17} For I am ready to halt, and my sorrow is continually before me. {18} For I will declare mine iniquity; I will be sorry for my sin." Psalm 1:2 my paraphrase, 'delight to meditate on God's law day and night.' Never did that all my life.
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
591
113
#16
To state a fundamental and basic rule of interpretation: "Simplicity and Naturalness - Presumably the meaning of almost any passage was simple to the writer; otherwise, he would have attempted to simplify it by explanation or further development. The correct interpretation will therefore be a simple one, and any very intricate or devious method of interpretation may be reasonably suspected of error.....Rule: -- —The simplest and most natural interpretation of a passage must be preferred." pages 79, 81, Principles of Interpretation, Clinton Lockhart, Second Edition 1915.
https://icotb.org/resources/PrinciplesofInterpretation.pdf

Verses 7-13 in chapter 7 are written in the past tense, then in 14-25 Paul clearly switches to the present tense. The NRSV labels vs7-13 as "The Law and Sin" and vs14-25 as "The Inner Conflict". Is the "Inner Conflict" that of a regenerated person, as the present tense would indicate as Paul writes it, and Christians experience it? That is indeed the natural and simple reading of the text. Yet, there are those who bring up the idea in grammar of a "historical present" which is defined as "the present tense used in narrating a past event as if happening at the time of narration". There are instances in the NT Greek of the historical present, mainly in the gospels but they are found in 1-3 verse passages, not passages making up almost half of a chapter. There is no reason in the context to make vs 14-25 a historical present. In English translations, the historical present is rendered as the simple past tense, and no English translation I've seen renders vs14-25 in the past tense. It violates a rule of interpretation to make one tense stand for another:

"No one of these tenses, strictly and properly taken, can stand for another, as commentators often would have us believe. But where such an interchange appears to take place, either it is merely apparent, and a sufficient reason (especially a rhetorical one) can be discovered why this and no other tense has been used, or it is to be set down to the account of a certain inaccuracy peculiar to the language of the people, which did not conceive and express relations of time with entire precision." page 209
Biblical Hermeneutics, A Treatise on the Interpretation of the Old and New Testaments by Milton S. Terry, copyright 1883
http://www.thestairview.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/milton_terry_biblicalhermeneutics.pdf

The only reason to twist Scripture and add complicated theological arguments to the plain statements of the Scripture is to prop up an error in doctrine already locked into. Seemingly, in this passage it is to save the error of some type of perfectionism or total sanctification. V14 is therefore said to not describe a regenerate person. John Gill points out that the context surely cannot refer to the unregenerate:

"...several things which are said by the apostle can neither agree with him, nor any other, but as regenerate; such as to 'hate evil', 'delight in the law of God', and 'serve it with the mind', Ro 7:15. Moreover, the distinctions between flesh and spirit, the inward and the outward man, and the struggle there is between them, are to be found in none but regenerate persons; and to say no more, the thanksgiving for deliverance from sin by Christ can only come from such..."

Paul elsewhere is writing to the brethren when he states, "But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another." (Gal 5:15, ERV) That describes very carnal conduct by Christians. Paul continues, "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would." (Gal 5:17, ERV) and that is stating the same in parallel as in Rom. 7:14-25.

When is total sanctification, full righteousness, sinless perfection to be found?

"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who will also do it." (1Thess 5:23-24, ERV)

"But, in accordance with his promise, we wait for new heavens and a new earth, where righteousness is at home." (2Pet 3:13, NRSV) and from the RWP on this verse:

"Dwelleth (κατοικε). Has its home (οικος). Certainly "righteousness" (δικαιοσυνη) is not at home in this present world either in individuals, families, or nations."

The idea that Christians in this life can be fully sanctified or sinlessly perfect is contradicted by the Scriptures:

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1John 1:8, NRSV)

"Surely there is no one on earth so righteous as to do good without ever sinning." (Eccl 7:20, NRSV)

"If you, O LORD, should mark iniquities, Lord, who could stand?" (Ps 130:3, NRSV)

In the stereotyped vice lists of Paul, which show those worthy of death and those barred from the kingdom of God, you not only find murderers, adulterers and sodomites; you also find sins and sinners such as gossips, envy, boastful, foolish, greedy, strife, quarrels. It seems that those claiming sinless perfection or total sanctification have a very shallow view of sin and feel good not to be a murderer, adulterer or sodomite, while often being guilty of some others that are equally condemned and worthy of death.
So the question boils down to this:

Does the passage you are referring to refer to Paul's pre Christian experience or post Christian experience?

Well, I go with Paul's pre Christian experience...:p
 
P

persistent

Guest
#17
PS How about Paul? He talks about a thorn in his side flesh (2 Cor, 12:7). Finally the realization hits him about how sinful he truly is. He delivered speeches proclaiming how he lived a life replete with exemplary deeds only to find out it was a life of transgressing God's law.
Look up Henry de Bracton, 13th century cleric and jurist. Good ol' boy put mankind on the present trajectory to hell with his work and saying "non sub homine, sed sub Deo et lege". i.e.Not under man, under God and law. Not!!!!under God's Law but under God and law.
 
P

persistent

Guest
#18
Another PS The 3rd chapter of John where Nicodemus, and it gets me that these "Jewish" leaders are referred to with Greek names, a "respected" leader comes by night. Is there a twinge of conflict here?
 

Ethan1942

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Jul 23, 2022
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#19
"No one who is a child of God is habitually guilty of sin. A God-given germ of life remains in him, and he cannot habitually sin--because he is a child of God." (1Jn 3:9 Weymouth)

"No one who is born of God makes a practice of sinning, because the God-given life-principle continues to live in him, and so he cannot practice sinning, because he is born of God." (1Jn 3:9 Williams)

"People conceived and brought into life by God don't make a practice of sin. How could they? God's seed is deep within them, making them who they are. It's not in the nature of the God-begotten to practice and parade sin." (1Jn 3:9 The Message)

Bold garbage because that's not what the Bible says.
We can stay with the KJV and it comes out the same, if you take the time to study how the KJV uses the singular "sin" and the plural "sins". Sin in the singular has a general and habitual meaning coming from the sin nature in man and "sins" are particular sins. Then also you must keep track of the limitations KJV contexts give us and I quote from Principles of Interpretation:

"A third kind of limitation that must not be disregarded is that furnished by parallel passages. Thus in I John 3:6, we read, "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither knoweth him." In verse 9, the writer adds, "Whosoever is begotten of God hath no sin, because his seed abideth in him; and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God." It would seem from these statements that John teaches that Christians never commit sins, and cannot do wrong of any kind. But when we consult 1:10, we see a clear limitation. He says to Christians, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us;" and so in 2:1,2, "If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father . . . and he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." Here the apostle speaking of himself and other Christians, most clearly implies their possibility of error, and points out the way of regaining divine favor. This shows that in the first passage he means that the true Christians cannot lead lives of sin, cannot regularly practice sin; and in the latter passage he refers to occasional errors in life. Thus his terms in the former passages are restricted by those in the latter, and all are harmonious. By these examples we are prepared to state the general RULE:—Choose the broad, meaning of a term, unless it be restricted." https://icotb.org/resources/PrinciplesofInterpretation.pdf

Keeping in context involves more than comparing the immediately adjacent verses, but the book itself.

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." (1John 1:8-10, KJV)

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1John 3:8-10, KJV)

The devil practices habitual sinning from the beginning and the children of the devil do likewise. The children of God do not practice habitual sinning.
 

Ethan1942

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Jul 23, 2022
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#20
From the lips of someone that sounds to me to be unregenerate, that is the notorious serial killer Geoffrey Dahmer, "I wish they had caught me sooner", or words to that effect. Maybe he did have inner conflict, albeit "unknowingly". I look back and see a lot of what I experienced before accepting Jesus as my savior could be called inner conflict. And when I read the Psalms, particularly where it talks about "....my sin is ever before me." Ps 51:3 or (Psalms 38:12-18) "They also that seek after my life lay snares for me: and they that seek my hurt speak mischievous things, and imagine deceits all the day long. {13} But I, as a deaf man, heard not; and I was as a dumb man that openeth not his mouth. {14} Thus I was as a man that heareth not, and in whose mouth are no reproofs. {15} For in thee, O LORD, do I hope: thou wilt hear, O Lord my God. {16} For I said, Hear me, lest otherwise they should rejoice over me: when my foot slippeth, they magnify themselves against me. {17} For I am ready to halt, and my sorrow is continually before me. {18} For I will declare mine iniquity; I will be sorry for my sin." Psalm 1:2 my paraphrase, 'delight to meditate on God's law day and night.' Never did that all my life.
Did you ever read where Dahmer ever expressed conflict between his actions and God's law? Was Dahmer ever concerned about God, or was he thinking merely of society and culture?

"Now I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because your grief led to repentance; for you felt a godly grief, so that you were not harmed in any way by us. For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation and brings no regret, but worldly grief produces death." (2Cor 7:9-10, NRSV)