Former pentecostal

OK. I think that works for you in a manner not much different than the thorn in his side making him come across as more humble than he otherwise would have, works for me.

My reasoning is Paul was so strong and zealous when coming against the church that to go from that to frail and sickly looking would be hard on his pride. Maybe because I know what having your back go out can make you feel like. Maybe we all see his thorn as the thorn we personally have to deal with? Maybe it is more telling of who we are then what was happening to him. Also part of the thought is how Satan was the ones who caused our once incorruptible bodies to become corruptible, 'by the sweat' where the once wasn't any. A thorn in the flesh would never happen to an incorruptible body. So it fits in that aspect also.

Thank you for the response.

I actually believe there are two different ones that are addressed, one is the tongue of 'angels' and the other the languages of the nations and I think they are both addressed so I would agree with that also. Good to see you out and about!!!

Cessationism is the theological belief that the sign gifts of the New Testament period have ceased to function. While cessationists believe God still performs miracles today, they teach that God does not specifically equip individual Christians to perform miraculous signs.
Have you read this def

There is an issue in reasoning from scripture continuationism or cessationism and relying on 1 co 13 as the main proof text.

I have fallen into doing that... when it is various other passages that work together with 1 Co 13 that show the cessation of sign gifts.

So when looking at 1 Co 13 alone.. the 'seeing face to face' and 'that which is perfect' or 'the perfect thing' can be reasonably argued as the 2nd coming or the completed canon on the surface of things.

The key thing is the purpose and times of the sign gifts .. the correct definitions of how they worked and who had the authority to do them.

Once that is established biblically and compared to what many are calling them now.. I believe this is where the cessation of sign gifts makes biblical sense.

1 Co 13 perfect thing I believe is the canon (the tme of completed inspiration.. not when the council approved it as so).. but not looking at this passage by itself... but in conjuction with looking at the apostles special functions and what the gifts were ..then.

It's the process that christendom went thru to establish the canon.. not the paper itself.

Yes but it's only a surmise. We have to go by what the scripture says not by what somebody surmises to be the case.
How on earth do you differentiate between whether someone was healed as a sign or as a grace according to God's will? What about word of knowledge or word of wisdom? what about discerning of spirits? are they sign gifts?

I read Cornelius Stam or C. H. Spurgeon or John Bunyan and I see the word of wisdom in their preaching, I bet they don't even think about it as one of the gifts ... although most folks including John Bunyan himself knew that Pilgrim's Progress was a pretty miraculous book.

C. H. Spurgeon pointed to a young woman in the balcony and told her that morning she had stolen from her mistress ... she came weeping to be saved. It's the word of knowledge.

Healing is a provision of the cross ... "He bore our infirmities and carried our sicknesses"

Cessationism is the theological belief that the sign gifts of the New Testament period have ceased to function. While cessationists believe God still performs miracles today, they teach that God does not specifically equip individual Christians to perform miraculous signs

Have you read this definition of what you say you believe?

This goes against everything the bible teaches. I will agree I come from a Pentecostal background what they call speaking in tongues is not what the bible is referring to; they work you up into an emotional state and you speak some gibberish and you have the “Gift of the Holly Spirit”

In Acts 2 what did the people hear? 2:7-11 Astounded and amazed, they asked, “Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8 How is it then that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9 Parthians, Medes, and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome, 11 both Jews and converts to Judaism; Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”

They heard them speak not only in there own language but in the dialect of there own village.

What does Luke say will happen in the end times?

Luke 21:12-19 copied from bible hub 12. But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. 18But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19In your patience possess ye your souls.

For My name's sake; For whose name sake? Jesus.

Verses 14 &5 You are not to thank about what you will say at this time; Why? Jesus is going to do the same thing here as in Acts 2. The Holy Spirit that is dwelling in you will do the speaking and it will be so well put that they will not be able to open there mouths to say anything bad.

Put to death. Should read be brought to death; Why? Who is death?

Hebrews 2:14 copied from biblehub.com:

Berean Study Bible
Now since the children have flesh and blood, He too shared in their humanity, so that by His death He might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is, the devil,

Berean Literal Bible
Therefore, since the children have partaken of blood and of flesh, He also likewise took part in the same things, so that through His death He might destroy the one holding the power of death, that is, the devil,

King James Bible
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

So who is death? The devil they are going to bring some before the devil nd God is going to give you a mouth that will even shut him up.

Verses 18&19 He may through you into salutary confinement but for no longer than 10 days; and then you will be killed. NO! That is not what it says not a hair on your head will parish and (this is the big one) you shall posses ye your soul. Not only will they not kill you but you will earn your spot in heaven by following Jesus and the Holy Spirit throughout this time.

Weeeell.. anything Jesus says to the disciples is for them at that time unless it is clear there is no limitation to it in the future or it is clear Jesus is referring to a different future time.

So for eg... The prophecy of people dreaming dreams and having visions..etc gets mostly fulfilled in Acts with Peter getting up and declaring it happening at that time.

So with Luke.. these things were fulfilled with the disciples and apostles martyrdom.

There is a lot more to this also.

Main thing being thinking about who is speaking to whom ... what is the subject... what is the occasion...what is the timing.

Something from Jesus to the disciples may apply now... if there is no limitations or exceptions in scripture that would affect what they are doing in the future.

I think you already know this anyway.. so I'm probably talking thru a hole in my head.. but it's the key thing of reading the Bible in context.

Where can I find that law written?

Having been raised in Pentecostalism and having spent decades going to Pentecostal churches, your assessment does not fit my experience. I have seen people speak in tongues in an emotional condition. And maybe that is the norm in some of the Appalachian Pentecostal churches that really emphasize shouting, where everyone prays in English, or tongues, at the same time, etc. I didn't notice this as much in the A/G, though there is quite a bit of variety in the A/G. Some people do sound kind of emotional when they give a message in tongues, but a lot of these people sound the same way if they pray in English.
In I Corinthians 14, in the context of a church meeting, when one person speaks in tongues, 'no man understandeth him' so what is spoken needs to be interpreted through the gift of interpretation for those present to understand. Both types of manifestations, Acts 2, and I Corinthians 14, are genuine.

What does Luke say will happen in the end times?

This is a good passage. The Spirit gifts people to prophesy, and speak in tongues. According to Romans 12, teaching and exhortation are charismata also. How do you get speaking in tongues out of this passage you just quoted?

Your question 'Who is death?' does not match the verse you quoted. It does not call the devil death. It says that the devil had the power of death.

I believe YOU choose to either ignore the truth or refuse to accept it when we have the Author of the LAST BOOK REVELATION and his Disciples. His Disciples became the earliest Church Fathers and they had their own Disciples. And we read Gifts continued throughout their writings.

200 years later we have the man who coined our modern day term trinity writing about seeing and participating in these same Gifts.

And we continually have evidence from our Church History of people throughout the Centuries documenting continuation of the Gifts.

So, YOU either just choose to ignore these truths or lack your own understanding because the evidence is well documented for anyone to read.

I agree with 99.9%of what you said. I still remember the Sunday morning that I “spoke in tongue's” there were several of us at the alter we were being anointed with oil we had people laying hands on us and I prayed louder and faster till I began to stammer and that was supposed to be my anointing of the Holy Spirit. Then that Sunday night pastor had me come up and asked me to tell everybody how wonderful I felt and how excited I was to have received the “Holy Ghost” No one ever interpreted what I said. I have heard someone give a message and then someone interpret. It was done as explained in the bible. One gives a message then another interprets it. Both happened in the church you spoke of. I have also heard many times someone speak “in tongue's” and no one interpret it and the sermon go on with no mention of what just happened. We will get into death next

Yes try the spirits. Raised pentecostal my self.
A couple rhetorical questions
Were you saved when you were in pentecostalism?
Were you filled with His Spirit?
Was everything in your Christian walk a lie?
Remember Satan always lies.
I have stepped back from the emotional side of pentecostalism. Asking myself was it because it was evil or because I matured I the Lord.

It's just reading context. You know this. Like 'where two or three are gathered in my name there I am with them'... primary application is the process of resolving sin disputes in a church. People though use the verse by itself to say Jesus is with 2 or 3 christians gathered anywhere.

Same sort of thing. What Jesus says and does with the disciples will apply to us now if scripture isn't specifying something exceptional to them at that time.

Okay.. well I'll have a look at what you mean. Blessings.

Here is what you said to me:

Your question 'Who is death?' does not match the verse you quoted. It does not call the devil death. It says that the devil had the power of death.

Lets go back to Luke 21. Jesus and His disciples were leaving the temple (church) It was a nice sunny afternoon. Jesus takes them privately to the Mt. Of Olives and what is the first question they have for Him?

Verse 7.And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? 8And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. 9But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

When will your 2nd coming be? What will the sings be' what are we to look for, and how do we get ready? That is the question we should be asking today in church not “who wants to go to lunch after church, or hope pastor is not long winded I got to get home to watch the game, go fishing, clean the car, mow the grass . . .” What is the first thing Jesus says. TAKE HEED “wake up pay attention,” Let NO man “not me, not you pastor, minister, priest, Sunday school teacher, mom dad anyone” deceive you. Why? Many; is that a few; no is it ½ no is it ¾ we are getting close (this is me but from all I can tell it is 90% or more) I am Christ in other words I am a christian pastor, preacher, man woman teacher . . . Deceive you. So don't you go out there chasing them. You will here of wars and rumors of wars but the end is not yet.

Lets drop down to verses 12-19

Verse 12.But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Where does this say they are going to persecute you? In the church thaqt which is to be the house of God and in prisons, you will be brought before kings and rulers. Who are the rulers? The leaders of the churches and the prinsons. Why are you going to be there? FOR MY “Jesus” name sake.

1. 
   
   Verse 13.And it shall turn to you for a testimony.​
   
   
   You are going to get a chance to wittiness to them​
   
   
   Verse 14. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:​
   
   
   Do not thank about what you are going to say to them. Why would Jesus say that?​
   
   
   Verse 15. For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.​
   
   
   You will speak in tongue's for real, with the wisdom of God that will put those gainsayers (A gainsayer in the Bible is someone who contradicts what God says in His Word. And each time the word gainsay is used, it is used of men who opposed God’s Word)​
   
   
   Verse 16. And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.​

Why would a mother, father, son, daughter,. . . turn in there own family? They thank that they are bringing them to Jesus or his workers. Why? 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-4 1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. They thank they are bringing you to Jesus and they will be saying to the Antichrist “ Little Bobby, Susie, . . . are good people they just do not thank you are Jesus please help them understand.

Verse 17. But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

Verse 16 says you shell be put to death and yet verse 17 says not a hair of your head shall perish. How can that be one verse says you will be killed the next verse says you will live not will you live but not a hair of your head will be lost. Will verse 19 explain it?

Verse 19. In your patience possess ye your souls. That says we are going to save our lives our souls. What is the answer? Is the bible wrong did God make a mistake here? GOD FORBID!! What is said? You are going to be handed over to death. Who is death? Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

If put to death is being brought before death how can Jesus say not a hair on your head parish. If you parish your hair will parish.

2. wattie said:

   It's just reading context. You know this. Like 'where two or three are gathered in my name there I am with them'... primary application is the process of resolving sin disputes in a church. People though use the verse by itself to say Jesus is with 2 or 3 christians gathered anywhere.
   
   Same sort of thing. What Jesus says and does with the disciples will apply to us now if scripture isn't specifying something exceptional to them at that time.

   Click to expand...

So if My wife amy dughter and I set down to study thy bible we pray and ask God to open our eyes and ears as we study He will not be there because there are only 2 or 3 gatheren in Hid name

Won't have to look far, as those same writings probably say "water baptism"
is Also for us, Today, Under Grace, But, as The God-Inspired Scripture Saith:

"...There is ONE Baptism..." (Eph 4:5), so, is it water? Well, in the context of
Paul's Revelation Of The Mystery and Grace, God Has him (since he IS The
apostle of the Gentiles in Rom 11:13) teach us:

"For By ONE Spirit Are we all Baptized into ONE Body..." (1Co 12:13
cp Rom 6:3-5; Gal 3:27; Col 2:10-12 = ALL Spiritual With
God's "Circumcision of the heart," Correct?)

So, do we go by God's Inspired Word Of Truth, or do we go by 2000 years of
UNinspired denominational traditions/writings that has led to the Most
Divisive and Confusing results in professing Christendom?

Conclusion: Even though "charistmatic" traditions of sign gifts is not as BAD
a division as a watered-down Gospel, it is still a fact that neither can the
UNinspired writings of men (continuationISM) Be Declared to be a:

"Truth = The Inspired Scriptures Of A Holy God," Correct?
----------------------------
A helpful study of: A Serious Side Effect

GRACE And Peace...

Okay, so Jesus says that kinsfolk and friends will cause 'you' to be put to death, then says not a hair of your head will perish. So that is an interesting issue. I'm thinking more along the lines of not perishing for eternity, having eternal life.

I don't see a lick of evidence here or in the rest of your post that death is the Devil. You assume that death is a 'who' but none of the verses you quoted support that idea or support the idea that death is the Devil. The Devil has the power of death according to that verse in Hebrews. It does not say that he is death.

There is an argument for allowing for this, that 'If there be no interpreter, let him keep silent in the church and let him speak to himself and to God', allows for a one-off tongue, and for the speaker to be quiet if there is no one there to interpret. Some pastors just move on with the service (assuming a pastor-centric service, which is typical of the Pentecostal movement and most Protestant churches.)

I have also seen when there was no interpretation, the leader (in this case a Christian school principal who I believe was a pastor also) saying something like, "I believe that tongue was for personal edification and not for the assembly' and then moving on. I probably would have been embarrassed if I were the 15 or 16-year-old who gave it. I knew him, but didn't ask about it. The church that school was affiliated with believed tongues given in church should be interpreted.

I'm not so I'm agreement with you on water baptism but there was Saint worship, rituals to earn salvation and on bishop over multiple congregations going on early