Former pentecostal

Yes, I think Verse 12 clears it up in all Versions.

You can't do that

In another place Paul writes Demas has turned away after the world, there were others who backslid, what then? had evangelism ceased? Had Paul lost the gift of being able to convert folks or restore them back to the Lord?

I take medicine, I need iodine, it doesn't mean there is no more healing. A few years back I had lost weight and was not feeling right and the doctor discover tumours on my lungs. They started talking about radiation. I prayed and the doctor was astonished for the tumours disappeared, "never seen that happen before" but I still need iodine.

We sin, but the blood still avails. God hasn't failed. Praise God we will wake up one day in glory and there'll be no more sin, no more sickness or tiredness.

Ireneus lived 150 years after Paul and said people were being healed, others were being shown visions.

I'm not going to say everything is perfect or that we understand everything, but revelation wise things are an awful lot better than they were in the 19th century. We won't mention the 1, 500 years of Roman Catholicism.

I'm still curious how the "perfect" can be the Bible. Whether you interpret it as perfect or complete, it doesn't explain how Paul can say in 1 Corinthians 13:12: "For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known."

To me this seems to put the final nail in the coffin of the idea that the "perfect" can be the Bible. Paul says he himself will know just as he is known when the perfect comes. But Paul was long dead when the completed canon was ratified.

So, we now have the Bible. Do we now know even as we are known? Do we now see face to face?

How can this be explained away? Seems to me, people who think the "perfect" is the Bible tend to just ignore this verse.

People have the Holy Spirit who do not have the gift of tongues ... The Holy Spirit Himself is the Gift.

Paul speaks about a fulness of the Holy Spirit, I don't think everyone who has the Holy Ghost has the fulness.

I would not be hopeful of someone who came to Him desiring the fulness or the baptism of the Holy Ghost who would say to Him "don't give me tongues" ... that is no way to be talking to the Lord.

Can you post the passage or passages you're talking about? I'd like to see the context. Where Paul speaks about the fulness of the Holy Spirit I mean.

Not without looking it up

I can point you to where he could not address certain as spiritual men but as mere carnal christians walking in the flesh

I could look it up but I'd prefer to know specifically which passages you are referring to.

Can't do what?

No, Never said "evangelism ceased." We were discussing the "sign gift" TO men,
of healings (ceased), in Contrast to "God's Healings (NOT ceased)," As HE Wills,
Today, Under GRACE. BIG Difference, Correct?

Paul, when He wrote this, was not talking about writings.
He was Writing about Love in chapter 13.

The context of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit starts in chapter 12 of 1Cortinthains and does not end at chapter 13:8-10 but continues to the end of Chapter 14.

In addition, Paul's Letter or Epistle was not written with Chapters and verses.

That was added to why?

Was the letter of Paul not perfect and needed Chapters and verses? Or was it Perfect when he wrote it?

There is no way this has anything to do with the canonization.
What Paul is speaking about in 1cor 13:8-10, and the word of God doesn't say that BUT the context of 1cor chapter 12 through 14 are the gifts of the Holy Spirit, what they are, how to use them through love and they are for the mature Christian as the ending chapter of the three says.

It's true Paul didn't know it would be a complete collection.. but he did know the Revelation of God through tongues, prophecy and knowledge was in part and would be completed by 'the perfect' or 'that which is perfect'

Paul did know about the second coming of Christ and didn't mention it that directly here either though.. so it cuts both ways.

What it comes down to is the purposes and times of the sign gifts. And the qualifications of being an apostle (and their close associates) .

Tongues.... Gods Revelation..
Prophecy....speaking forth Gods Revelation
Knowledge.. of God's Revelation

The Word of God... complete Revelation.

Not the paper... but the process by which God used to inspire the writers and establish the early churches.

But it's true.. Paul did not know what the perfect exactly would be. But he did know the second coming well and didn't clearly put it in here.

This is not true Paul fully knew of the second coming He taught about it in 1thess chapter for and 1cor 15 . Paul did not know when as we all do not be are to be ready. There are people in the Book of Acts who did signs and wonders who were not Apostles.

Stephen and Ananias are just two who were not Apostles, and one of them laid hands on Paul to be healed and filled with the Holy Spirit.

Yeah.. they were close associates to the apostles who were given special roles...

The exception rather than the rule.

And yea Paul did know the second coming.. but I mean he didn't directly mention it in 1 co 13.

The Bible is called a mirror in other scripture and could easily be the 'face to face ' in 1 co 13.

Aside from this it's the ongoing process that was going on with the sign gifts .. the foundation that was being established that is the main thing. Whatever is perfect is the culmination of that.

I disagree. Jesus said you shall receive power after the Holy Ghost as come upon you to be a witness. That is the "rule " for today unless you think the bible left on a counter preaches itself as a normative over people preaching.

op: former pentecostal (now "cessationist"):

What results do we have so far for "But when that which is perfect is
come, then that which is in part shall be done away." (1Co 13:10)?:

1) Is it "Christ, Who Is Perfect." Is HE the neuter gender that?
2) canon (300 years later?) is perfect
3) rapture (of The "Body Of Christ) is perfectly glorified"?

4) Paul's letters? In the beginning "gifts (signs)" are there, Confirming
his apostleship And authority, From God, as THE "apostle TO the Gentiles."

But, in the end (prison epistles?) of the chronological [studies I and II *]
order of his letters, where are the "gifts"? Paul "DOES Not mention them
any more, but DOES mention sickness and infirmities (post 169), AND:


for the rest of the Current Dispensation Of GRACE?

5) Acts ("that which is in part?) is finished and complete,
God "Setting Israel (sign seekers?) aside" (Acts 28:24-28)?

God's "Transition From law Over TO GRACE" Is now complete (perfect)?

And thus, the "sign gifts" (for seekers) have ceased, no longer necessary?
Seriously, could this be the Very Reason God, through our apostle,
admonishes us to:

---------------------------------------------------
What think ye? any other choices to prayerful/Carefully ponder?
-----------------------
*
When Did the gift of tongues Cease? (I) [scroll to bottom of pg 18]
When Did the gift of tongues Cease? (II)

GRACE And Peace...

Not if it was given by God. Or do you think Satan thought he would become conceited?

We are talking the sign gifts here. That isn't all God uses... you know that I'm sure.

So, today I would be applying scripture to my life and God speaks to me thru that. That is how we all do it as Christians.
That's how you would do it.

Anyway.. this forum is too limiting... we miss the context of what we are saying.. too many post and too many in-between posts.

but we can agree to disagree. All good man.

God bless

the sign gifts are the gifts of the Holy Spirit recorded in 1cor chapter 12 through 14 are for as stated

1cor 12:4-6
"There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.

7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.


11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

It still comes down to what will cause them to cease.

Any part of scripture is dependent on whether there is anything that indicates the following of that would be superceded by something else.

So..... I can follow commands to discipleship.. church fellowship.. 10 commandments .. empowering of the Holy Spirit.. etc.. etc.. because there is nothing in scripture that limits those things to a particular time. But the sign gifts have key things that DO limit them.

Something Jesus says to the disciples MAY be applied to now if there is nothing to show that what the wonders they were doing weren't specially meant for the time and purpose. You know this im sure.

Anyway.. agree to disagree.. im done. I don't have to convince you.. you don't have to convince me.

Im sure we can agree on the deity of Christ.. the bible is the Word of God and salvation is through Jesus and no other.. so there is some common ground.

Blessings