Post-death/pre-resurrection

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A

AndrewMorgan

Active member
#1
Jul 10, 2022
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#1
I recently posted a question re. the state of people when they die, before Jesus' second coming - ie - have they gone to Heaven or Hell or are they "at sleep", awaiting resurrection.
Whereas I tend toward the latter, I am unsure as to what a careful reading of the whole of the NT would signify, and some posts have already made me question my leanings.
I want now to pose a question about Christ Himself. What was His condition post-death and pre-resurrection? Did he go to Hell for those few days, as many believe? Or was He unconscious?
I'd be interested in others' biblically-based opinions.
 
R

RichMan

Guest
#2
#2
He told the thief on the cross next to Him that he would be with Him in paradise today, so I believe Jesus was in paradise those 3 says.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#3
Jul 18, 2017
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#3
AndrewMorgan said:
Did he go to Hell for those few days, as many believe?
Click to expand...
It is extremely unfortunate that Hades was not transliterated, but translated incorrectly as "hell". While the body of Christ was in His tomb, His soul and spirit were in Hades for three days and three nights.

Before Christ's resurrection, all souls (saved and unsaved) went to Hades. On the day of His resurrection, Christ took all the OT saints from Hades to Heaven. Ever since all the NT saints who have passed on have gone to Heaven (the New Jerusalem). See Hebrews 12:22-24. There are no souls "sleeping" since in Heaven everyone is alive, awake, and alert. So just reject the false doctrine of Soul Sleep.
 
R

RichMan

Guest
#4
#4
Nehemiah6 said:
It is extremely unfortunate that Hades was not transliterated, but translated incorrectly as "hell". While the body of Christ was in His tomb, His soul and spirit were in Hades for three days and three nights.

Before Christ's resurrection, all souls (saved and unsaved) went to Hades. On the day of His resurrection, Christ took all the OT saints from Hades to Heaven. Ever since all the NT saints who have passed on have gone to Heaven (the New Jerusalem). See Hebrews 12:22-24. There are no souls "sleeping" since in Heaven everyone is alive, awake, and alert. So just reject the false doctrine of Soul Sleep.
Click to expand...
You might want to read Luke 16.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#5
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
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113
#5
Nehemiah6 said:
It is extremely unfortunate that Hades was not transliterated, but translated incorrectly as "hell". While the body of Christ was in His tomb, His soul and spirit were in Hades for three days and three nights.

Before Christ's resurrection, all souls (saved and unsaved) went to Hades. On the day of His resurrection, Christ took all the OT saints from Hades to Heaven. Ever since all the NT saints who have passed on have gone to Heaven (the New Jerusalem). See Hebrews 12:22-24. There are no souls "sleeping" since in Heaven everyone is alive, awake, and alert. So just reject the false doctrine of Soul Sleep.
Click to expand...
Correction...hell. His soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. Christ went to hell to get the keys to hell and death, deposit man's sins into hell, preached to the spirits in prison, then walked across the great gulf to Abraham's bosom where he would unite with the thief on the cross. He preached the gospel to those who had died.
 
JTB

JTB

Well-known member
#6
Aug 31, 2021
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#6
You have to understand how time and eternity interact. I was taught there's a time-line, that there was eternity, then time, then eternity again. It was depicted graphically like this: eternity) -----------time----------(eternity . But a better image of the time/eternity relationship is a wheel.

A wheel has a hub and a rim... now picture God and eternity existing in the hub, while time curves along the rim. This relationship gives God the ability to reach out and touch any point in time, at any time, like randomly inserted spokes.

To illustrate; from eternity/the hub, God can reach out and do something in David’s time. Having done that, He can pull back then reach out to Abraham’s time. Next He could reach out to your time. Then reach out and go see Peter. Again, like lacing a wheel with spokes.

With this image we can then answer many questions, like how can God be with everyone all the time at the same time. Suppose on the day you are born, God reaches out from the hub to your spot on the rim to spend your entire life with you. Then when your time ends He brings you home. Then He reaches from the hub again to the spot on the rim where your best friend is born, and spends their life with them, until He brings them home. The He reaches yet again when someone else is born and spends their life with them, until they come home. On and on, walking with each and every one of us one at a time, while all at the same time.

It also helps us see the power of praise and thanksgiving for answered prayers. Our rim/time based after-the-fact praise and thanksgiving enter eternity/the hub before God ... God in the hub says wow s/he was really grateful for that answered prayer ... so He then reaches out to the rim to give a blessing to our request – which here on the rim is at a point that's behind us ... and puts in motion the answer to the prayer or request that we will at a later date express true appreciation for.

God is not constrained to our time line. He has access to all of time, all of the time. Even that which is behind us. And visualizing a wheel helps us to see that.

Regarding the resurrection, on our time-line rim, our body dirt naps until that resurrection. But in the hub, or eternity, it arrives at the same time our spirit does. Thus even tho in time (the rim) the body sleeps, in the hub/eternity the thief and his body both arrive in paradise that very day.
 
Lafftur

Lafftur

Senior Member
#7
Apr 18, 2017
6,886
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#7
JTB said:
You have to understand how time and eternity interact. I was taught there's a time-line, that there was eternity, then time, then eternity again. It was depicted graphically like this: eternity) -----------time----------(eternity . But a better image of the time/eternity relationship is a wheel.

A wheel has a hub and a rim... now picture God and eternity existing in the hub, while time curves along the rim. This relationship gives God the ability to reach out and touch any point in time, at any time, like randomly inserted spokes.

To illustrate; from eternity/the hub, God can reach out and do something in David’s time. Having done that, He can pull back then reach out to Abraham’s time. Next He could reach out to your time. Then reach out and go see Peter. Again, like lacing a wheel with spokes.

With this image we can then answer many questions, like how can God be with everyone all the time at the same time. Suppose on the day you are born, God reaches out from the hub to your spot on the rim to spend your entire life with you. Then when your time ends He brings you home. Then He reaches from the hub again to the spot on the rim where your best friend is born, and spends their life with them, until He brings them home. The He reaches yet again when someone else is born and spends their life with them, until they come home. On and on, walking with each and every one of us one at a time, while all at the same time.

It also helps us see the power of praise and thanksgiving for answered prayers. Our rim/time based after-the-fact praise and thanksgiving enter eternity/the hub before God ... God in the hub says wow s/he was really grateful for that answered prayer ... so He then reaches out to the rim to give a blessing to our request – which here on the rim is at a point that's behind us ... and puts in motion the answer to the prayer or request that we will at a later date express true appreciation for.

God is not constrained to our time line. He has access to all of time, all of the time. Even that which is behind us. And visualizing a wheel helps us to see that.

Regarding the resurrection, on our time-line rim, our body dirt naps until that resurrection. But in the hub, or eternity, it arrives at the same time our spirit does. Thus even tho in time (the rim) the body sleeps, in the hub/eternity the thief and his body both arrive in paradise that very day.
Click to expand...
Your post reminded me….

One day while reading about the miracle of God using the 2 fish and 5 loaves of bread to feed 5,000 people…. I asked God, “How did You do that? It happened in the physical realm so there must be some kind of physical law that You manipulated… what was it? How did you do it?”

He did not answer me until a month later, I was reading about creation and seed, time and harvest… and how all the plants and herbs had seed within them…

BINGO! Understanding came!

The 2 fish - one was female and one was male… God took their seed, manipulated time and created a harvest of fish!!!

In other words, God took those 2 fish back in time to when they were alive, mated them which created more fish then took those more fish forward in time and kept mating them which created more fish, then gathered all the fish and brought them back to the time and had plenty of fish to feed 5,000 people and 12 baskets of leftovers.

It’s the same principle with the 5 loaves… seed, time, and harvest… all brought back to the same time.

Only God controls and manipulates time.

Then, God showed me something I did not even ask about…. How did the Israelites sandals never wear out for 40 years in the desert?

Even though the Israelites were existing in Time, God took there sandals out of Time so that their sandals never changed, their sandals remained the same.

God is amazing!! Full of wonder, wisdom and awe!!!

Ask Him questions!!! He desires to share all He knows with us!
 
K

kleronomos

Banned
#8
Dec 15, 2021
1,494
216
63
#8
Nehemiah6 said:
It is extremely unfortunate that Hades was not transliterated, but translated incorrectly as "hell". While the body of Christ was in His tomb, His soul and spirit were in Hades for three days and three nights.

Before Christ's resurrection, all souls (saved and unsaved) went to Hades. On the day of His resurrection, Christ took all the OT saints from Hades to Heaven. Ever since all the NT saints who have passed on have gone to Heaven (the New Jerusalem). See Hebrews 12:22-24. There are no souls "sleeping" since in Heaven everyone is alive, awake, and alert. So just reject the false doctrine of Soul Sleep.
Click to expand...
Wow, I mostly agree with you, kind of.

BUT, if the Body of Christ has been gathering to heaven for all these years (I AGREE) and the 'last' of it will be when He returns as LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS and the alive and remaining who have endured to the end are changed, (I BELIEVE) when Satan destroyed bound and sealed in the abyss as the Lords Day begins, why the rapture 7 years earlier? Why divide the church within full view of the finish line?

Obviously, with the descriptions of the 'churches' any sort of 'TESTING' would be a WISE and prudent move on Gods part, ESPECIALLY since Satan is going to be let loose one more time before 'THE DEAD' stand in judgment, not to mention the SUPER SIMPLE and without fail HARVEST of the wheat and tares, just a couple days later, where everyone either has 'taken the mark of the beast' or 'HAS REMAINED FAITHFUL' to the end....I still have all those questions no one will ever answer...STILL I personally was happy to find some common ground
 
K

kleronomos

Banned
#9
Dec 15, 2021
1,494
216
63
#9
AndrewMorgan said:
I recently posted a question re. the state of people when they die, before Jesus' second coming - ie - have they gone to Heaven or Hell or are they "at sleep", awaiting resurrection.
Whereas I tend toward the latter, I am unsure as to what a careful reading of the whole of the NT would signify, and some posts have already made me question my leanings.
I want now to pose a question about Christ Himself. What was His condition post-death and pre-resurrection? Did he go to Hell for those few days, as many believe? Or was He unconscious?
I'd be interested in others' biblically-based opinions.
Click to expand...
How detailed are you looking to get?
RichMan said:
You might want to read Luke 16.
Click to expand...
Didn't that take place BEFORE the NEW COVENANT CAME INTO PLAY? Are you saying you don't think Christ accomplished what He said He was accomplishing that day?
 
K

kleronomos

Banned
#10
Dec 15, 2021
1,494
216
63
#10
Lafftur said:
Your post reminded me….

One day while reading about the miracle of God using the 2 fish and 5 loaves of bread to feed 5,000 people…. I asked God, “How did You do that? It happened in the physical realm so there must be some kind of physical law that You manipulated… what was it? How did you do it?”

He did not answer me until a month later, I was reading about creation and seed, time and harvest… and how all the plants and herbs had seed within them…

BINGO! Understanding came!

The 2 fish - one was female and one was male… God took their seed, manipulated time and created a harvest of fish!!!

In other words, God took those 2 fish back in time to when they were alive, mated them which created more fish then took those more fish forward in time and kept mating them which created more fish, then gathered all the fish and brought them back to the time and had plenty of fish to feed 5,000 people and 12 baskets of leftovers.

It’s the same principle with the 5 loaves… seed, time, and harvest… all brought back to the same time.

Only God controls and manipulates time.

Then, God showed me something I did not even ask about…. How did the Israelites sandals never wear out for 40 years in the desert?

Even though the Israelites were existing in Time, God took there sandals out of Time so that their sandals never changed, their sandals remained the same.

God is amazing!! Full of wonder, wisdom and awe!!!

Ask Him questions!!! He desires to share all He knows with us!
Click to expand...

I'll bet you had goose bumps all up and down your body found your arms reaching up to heaven and you shouting out in Joy!!! Love it when God gives those kinds of 'spiritual' revelations. But they only come with prayer and patience for me anyhow. You have to put aside all you know and not try to force anything or it will never come. One of the best lessons anyone can learn, if they have the patience to learn it. GOD BLESS you and God Bless you for sharing.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#11
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#11
kleronomos said:
BUT, if the Body of Christ has been gathering to heaven for all these years (I AGREE) and the 'last' of it will be when He returns as LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS and the alive and remaining who have endured to the end are changed, (I BELIEVE) when Satan destroyed bound and sealed in the abyss as the Lords Day begins, why the rapture 7 years earlier? Why divide the church within full view of the finish line?
Click to expand...
The Church is not divided at all.

1. As I noted it is only the saints who have passed on (are deceased) who are now in Heaven. Their souls and spirits are in Heaven, but they have yet to receive their glorified bodies. So at the Resurrection/Rapture (one event), these saints will receive their bodies while those who are living at that time will be transformed and also receive glorified bodies. All the saints will then go to Heaven with Christ, and await the Marriage of the Lamb. This is all plainly stated in 1 Thessalonians 4 (and other passages).

2. Seven years (or more) later Christ returns WITH all His saints and angels at His Second Coming. This is when He comes as King of kings and Lord of lords.

3. After that Christ establishes His Millennial Kingdom on Earth (while Satan is bound).

4. "The Lord's Day" should not be confused with "the day of the LORD". These are two different things. "The Lord's Day" is the first day of the week, when the Lord arose from the dead. "The day of the LORD" is a period of great divine judgments, and corresponds to the Great Tribulation. This period occurs just before the Second Coming of Christ.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#12
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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113
#12
John146 said:
Christ went to hell to get the keys to hell and death, deposit man's sins into hell, preached to the spirits in prison, then walked across the great gulf to Abraham's bosom where he would unite with the thief on the cross.
Click to expand...
That word should be "Hades" not hell. Hades corresponds to Sheol. So Christ went to Sheol/Hades, and here is the proof.

PSALM 16:10 (Sheol marked in red)
כִּ֤י ׀ לֹא־תַעֲזֹ֣ב נַפְשִׁ֣י לִשְׁאֹ֑ול לֹֽא־תִתֵּ֥ן חֲ֝סִידְךָ֗ לִרְאֹ֥ות שָֽׁחַת ׃
For thou wilt not leave my soul in [Sheol]; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (KJB)

ACTS 2:27 (Hades marked in red)
ὅτι οὐκ ἐγκαταλείψεις τὴν ψυχήν μου εἰς ᾅδου, οὐδὲ δώσεις τὸν ὅσιόν σου ἰδεῖν διαφθοράν
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in [Hades], neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Hades is the place of departed souls and spirits. After the resurrection of Christ, only the unsaved dead go to Hades to await their final judgment for Hell (the Lake of Fire).
 
A

Amanuensis

Well-known member
#13
Jun 12, 2021
1,457
460
83
#13
Lafftur said:
Your post reminded me….

One day while reading about the miracle of God using the 2 fish and 5 loaves of bread to feed 5,000 people…. I asked God, “How did You do that? It happened in the physical realm so there must be some kind of physical law that You manipulated… what was it? How did you do it?”

He did not answer me until a month later, I was reading about creation and seed, time and harvest… and how all the plants and herbs had seed within them…

BINGO! Understanding came!

The 2 fish - one was female and one was male… God took their seed, manipulated time and created a harvest of fish!!!

In other words, God took those 2 fish back in time to when they were alive, mated them which created more fish then took those more fish forward in time and kept mating them which created more fish, then gathered all the fish and brought them back to the time and had plenty of fish to feed 5,000 people and 12 baskets of leftovers.

It’s the same principle with the 5 loaves… seed, time, and harvest… all brought back to the same time.

Only God controls and manipulates time.

Then, God showed me something I did not even ask about…. How did the Israelites sandals never wear out for 40 years in the desert?

Even though the Israelites were existing in Time, God took there sandals out of Time so that their sandals never changed, their sandals remained the same.

God is amazing!! Full of wonder, wisdom and awe!!!

Ask Him questions!!! He desires to share all He knows with us!
Click to expand...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Are you sure God told you that? Seems kind of fishy if you ask me.
 
A

AndrewMorgan

Active member
#14
Jul 10, 2022
375
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#14
Thanks, everybody, for your input. It will take a lot of consideration. I've read through it and intend more thoroughly examining it later.
 
J

jb

Senior Member
#15
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
591
113
#15
Nehemiah6 said:
It is extremely unfortunate that Hades was not transliterated, but translated incorrectly as "hell". While the body of Christ was in His tomb, His soul and spirit were in Hades for three days and three nights.

Before Christ's resurrection, all souls (saved and unsaved) went to Hades. On the day of His resurrection, Christ took all the OT saints from Hades to Heaven. Ever since all the NT saints who have passed on have gone to Heaven (the New Jerusalem). See Hebrews 12:22-24. There are no souls "sleeping" since in Heaven everyone is alive, awake, and alert. So just reject the false doctrine of Soul Sleep.
Click to expand...
His "spirit" returned to God Who gave it, His "soul" going into Hades (abyss), His "body" was in the tomb. Eccl 12v7, Luke 23v46, Acts 2v26,27, Rom 10v7, Eph 4v8-10, John 19v38-41.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#16
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
3,687
113
#16
Nehemiah6 said:
That word should be "Hades" not hell. Hades corresponds to Sheol. So Christ went to Sheol/Hades, and here is the proof.

PSALM 16:10 (Sheol marked in red)
כִּ֤י ׀ לֹא־תַעֲזֹ֣ב נַפְשִׁ֣י לִשְׁאֹ֑ול לֹֽא־תִתֵּ֥ן חֲ֝סִידְךָ֗ לִרְאֹ֥ות שָֽׁחַת ׃
For thou wilt not leave my soul in [Sheol]; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (KJB)

ACTS 2:27 (Hades marked in red)
ὅτι οὐκ ἐγκαταλείψεις τὴν ψυχήν μου εἰς ᾅδου, οὐδὲ δώσεις τὸν ὅσιόν σου ἰδεῖν διαφθοράν
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in [Hades], neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Hades is the place of departed souls and spirits. After the resurrection of Christ, only the unsaved dead go to Hades to await their final judgment for Hell (the Lake of Fire).
Click to expand...
Now you’re becoming an expert in languages.

Hell is the correct English word. Hades is Greek mythology. My Bible does not dabble in Greek mythology. My Bible is consistent from start to finish.

Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
 
A

AndrewMorgan

Active member
#18
Jul 10, 2022
375
81
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#18
John146 said:
Now you’re becoming an expert in languages.

Hell is the correct English word. Hades is Greek mythology. My Bible does not dabble in Greek mythology. My Bible is consistent from start to finish.

Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Click to expand...

Is not the Greek word there "Hades"?
"Hades is Greek mythology."? How does the correct word "hades" denote Greek mythology?
 
A

AndrewMorgan

Active member
#19
Jul 10, 2022
375
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#19
John146 said:
Now you’re becoming an expert in languages.

Hell is the correct English word. Hades is Greek mythology. My Bible does not dabble in Greek mythology. My Bible is consistent from start to finish.

Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Click to expand...

I suspect you are a KJVonlyist. Would you care to confirm or deny this?
 
A

AndrewMorgan

Active member
#20
Jul 10, 2022
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#20
It was suggested I consider Luke16.
OK - First, let's consider at what point in the timeframe of God's plan of salvation this was referring. As it's before Christ's sacrifice, I would think it's referring to essentially an OT position.
It's also in dispute as to whether the passage is about real people or a metaphor. If it's about 2 real people in an OT setting, it suggests that (at least some of) the dead are conscious in a post-death state - in Heaven or (Hades - "in torments"). If, as some (Jehovah's Witnesses and Christadelphians) state, the account is a metaphor, I don't know what can be gleaned from it on the subject being discussed.
I don't know if others can shed light on anything I've missed, but I'd be interested to hear any input people would care to share.
 
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