And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

Revelation 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Revelation 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.



I had a feeling

FreeGrace2 said:
Sure. Both souls and bodies can be tormented, but only bodies can die twice.
Regeneration of the dead human spirit.

The believer becomes TRI-chotomous, whereas the unregenerate unbeliever is DI-chotomous.

I've already SAID that God is able to kill souls so that they cease to exist.

But the Bible DOESN'T SAY that He does. While you insist that He does. Without any verse, other than the "can" verse.

Go ahead and insist that "can" means "will". You're all by yourself.

Seems to be part of the problem here. Too much maudlin sentiments.

My.... this is not a discussion, it's clearly an argument.
BTW, God's presence is all around us. He & the angels can "view" us while we go about our business.
Just because they can view Hell doesn't mean Hell has to be nearby.
His way are past finding out.
Please stop this arguing nonsense before the mods give warning or shut the Op down.

I’m with God, Jesus, James, and kleronomos on this. I agree with them. Jesus clearly taught the alternative to everlasting life was perishing in John 3:16, hence why He said God can destroy both soul and body in hell. Being destroyed both soul and body is the only offered options; no eternal torment option for all of the unsaved.

In Luke 13:3-5, Jesus very plainly provided you your options: repent or perish.

It is God’s will that none should perish, but that all should come to repentance: those are you options. Hence why the judgement for the unsaved is being thrown into the lake of fire where they have the second death; they perish, utterly destroyed.

John 3:16
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Matthew 10:28
28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

James 4:12
12There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

Luke 13:3-5
3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

2 Peter 3:9
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Revelation 20:14,15
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

definition of perish

quote
suffer death, typically in a violent, sudden, or untimely way.
"a great part of his army perished of hunger and disease"

end quote

How do we do that? We have asked, and we have pointed out the provoking behavior and asked for it to stop, tried to rebuke using Scripture all to no avail. So do we just let those who apparently love the strife they cause to continue to teach false doctrine or do we take the persecution we are promised to receive and put forth TRUTH of what is written?

If we don't take the persecution that the 'fruits of the flesh' put forth then all anyone can find when seeking is the traditions of man, false doctrines from false teachers. I am just going to let 'the discerning' come to their own conclusion about who the Spirit is working through and who clearly it is not because we who know know 'by their fruits you will know them'.

The only thing evil needs to succeed is for the good to do nothing. That is the whole point of the aggression. But don't feel bad Paul would spend months doing this very thing

Acts 19:8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.

Acts 19:9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.

Acts 19:10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.


But you are right about getting the thread shut down as that would be the intension of some, another reason for us to crucify the flesh and let the spirit lead. Could you imagine if both sides were all about the lust of the flesh and the lashing out?

No, God is way more important and I truly believe in Hebrews 4:12 and by every word we utter and mostly that judgment will start with those who teach and will be hardest on them. I can't even imagine having the 'eternal torment' as my judgment standard, praise GOD. As for me, the more I fight for mercy for the 'sottish' the better I feel.



Remember, IF I AM WRONG, My Lord and Saviors judgment of me will be FULL OF MERCY, but if they are wrong, the JUDGEMENT rendered will be with NO MERCY at all.

I
Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

Hebrews 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Hebrews 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Hebrews 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

THIS IS WHAT I AM DOING, AS I BELIEVE RM and Mage are doing also.

Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

1557. ekdikésis
Strong's Concordance
ekdikésis: vengeance, vindication
Original Word: ἐκδίκησις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: ekdikésis
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-dik'-ay-sis)
Definition: vengeance, vindication
Usage: (a) a defense, avenging, vindication, vengeance, (b) full (complete) punishment.
HELPS Word-studies
1557 ekdíkēsis (a feminine noun derived from 1537 /ek, "out from and to" and 1349 /díkē, "justice, judge") – properly, judgment which fully executes the core-values (standards) of the particular judge, i.e. extending from the inner-person of the judge to its out-come (outcome).

THE CORE VALUES OF THE PARTICULAR JUDGE - A COMPLETE PUNISHMENT. Does that sound anything like 'eternal torture', torture without end for ever and ever? PUNISHMENT THAT IS NEVER COMPLETED?

DOES THAT SOUND LIKE GOD who uses everything He does as a way of CORRECTION?



467. antapodidómi
Strong's Concordance
antapodidómi: to give back as an equivalent, recompense
Original Word: ἀνταποδίδωμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: antapodidómi
Phonetic Spelling: (an-tap-od-ee'-do-mee)
Definition: to give back as an equivalent, recompense
Usage: I give in return, recompense.
HELPS Word-studies
467 antapodídōmi (from 473 /antí, "corresponding back" and 591 /apodídōmi, "give") – properly, "pay-back," recompense; return, as an equivalence, i.e. what is equitable (proportional, "fitting").


DOES ETERNAL TORMENT IN ANY WAY SEEM 'EQUITABLE' ? I cant wrap my head around such a thought. In all these posts not for a moment have I ever believed it was possible. I personally believe that it will be HARD for the Lord to judge those to the 2nd death but it will be JUST.

How can GOD recompense ETERNAL TORMENT for the sins committed in a day?

Surely some will say 'that is just for HIS PEOPLE' but they forget

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.




Hebrews 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;

Hebrews 10:33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.

Hebrews 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

Hebrews 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

Hebrews 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Hebrews 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.



Ezekiel 18:3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,

Ezekiel 18:6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,

Ezekiel 18:7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;

Ezekiel 18:8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,

Ezekiel 18:9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 18:10 If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things,

Ezekiel 18:11 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife,

Ezekiel 18:12 Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination,

Ezekiel 18:13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.

sounds like this to me:
“Those against eternal conscious torment presented a very strong case that can’t be refuted using scripture and those for eternal conscious torment for all unsaved couldn’t provide a single verse proving anything. Shut this thread down!”

What we have done here is actually spiritual warfare. The truth is spiritual warfare on darkness. It shakes demonic strongholds, it’s similar to kicking a hornet’s nest. The last thing the enemy wants is for the veil to be lifted from the church’s eyes.

Really we should try to cast our net a bit wider as “fishers of men”so to speak. We’re mostly speaking to people who have their mind made up and will do anything, including attack others, calling them crying drunks, among many other things than humbly submit to God’s word. This is good experience and like you said Paul experienced it, too, and he didn’t give up for years. When he finally moved on he sent disciples to continue the work.

2 Corinthians 10:3-6 KJV
3For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds 5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Well, thank you for your opinion, again. But you are still WRONG.

What you can't defend is your unsubstantiated claim that even though 2 humans have been in the LOF for 1,000 years before being joined by Satan (Rev 19-20-20:10) and immediately after that is the GWT judgment where all the rest of the unbelievers of the human race will be cast into the LOF, they will just cease to exist. Not a word in Scripture in that text about the GWT crowd ceasing to exist, when thrown into the LOF.

It is just sheer presumption to claim that all of them will cease to exist when the Bible clearly shows that the 2 humans have been in the LOF for 1,000 years, and will be tornented day and night for ever and ever.

To argue that "day and night for ever and ever" doesn't literally mean never ending is insane.

Exactly! And you are fighting for the devil. He has already deceived the fools (atheists from Psa 14:1) to believe that death means to simply cease to exist. Your view isn't much different, ultimately.

Don't worry about "the church". Worry about your own deception. And who is deceiving you.

Comment #1405 is the truth. The Bible confirms it.

I've NEVER argued about "perish" and "destroy". Of course the resurrected but mortal bodies of all unbelievers will surely perish and be destroyed when they are cast into the LOF. Without a doubt.

However, everyone knows that mortal bodies can perish and be destroyed. And that is obvious. And we know that the bodies of all saved people will be resurrected as glorified bodies, immortal and imperishable. So we will live with our physical bodies forever.

The mortal bodies of unbelievers will be utterly destroyed in the LOF.

What you cannot defend is your idea that immaterial souls will cease to exist when thrown into the LOF.

You keep making a big point about what the Bible doesn't say, and yet you are guilty of that.

The text at Rev 20:10 doesn't change when we come to the next verse. What I mean is, right after satan joins the beast and FP, we come to the GWT judgment, where all the rest of the unbelievers will be cast into the same LOF.

There is NO REASON to presume they will get a different treatment than the beast and FP get.

As a matter of fact, IF they were going to get a different treatment, why doesn't the Bible make that real clear?

And you have no answer...again.

How do you shut down a thread?

I don’t know that’s just what someone said in post #1404.

Do I have this correct?

CAN DOES NOT mean WILL for BOTH body and soul


CAN DOES NOT mean WILL for the SOUL.


but CAN DOES mean WILL for the BODY.



Matthew 10:27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I went to the new users page and asked the question. I'll let you know as soon as they answer. I sure hope you are right. I know if they do, and I would have known, I would have a long time ago.

Can or able does not suggest a negative. It suggests the affirmative which is that God can destroy both soul and body in hell because He is able to do anything. This fact meshes with scripture which says the unsaved perish, or are destroyed, or are put to death. It never even once says all of the unsaved go to eternal torment. That's why context is key.

The Bible clearly never affirms the negative which is what eternal tormentors want the Bible to say, but this isn't sound logic and isn't how reality works. God can/or is able to destroy soul and body because that's the alternative to eternal life. The opposite of eternal life is death. The body, soul, and spirit live forever in the resurrection. Glory to God.

It's at the moderators discretion because they have the final say on all things on this website. Everyone is free to report whatever they feel/think they need to. From my perspective, heresy is not the same thing as poor Bible interpretation because there's innocence or ignorance involved. Of course, God has the final say on everything. More scripture quoted the better, but the more scripture you quote the more arguments that will arise. That's how we got to where we are. There are people who will argue with scripture; this is spiritual warfare.

I also might add, this is evident when scripture is quoted and then people reject it and change the plain meaning of it. For example: Death isn't death, destroy isn't destroy, perish isn't perish, eternal conscious torment (ECT) for everyone not saved, etc. Those are tell-tale signs when people are changing words, fiddling with definitions, rejecting the truth, etc.