When did the Church begin?

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MOC

Member
Mar 20, 2020
84
69
18
#1
Most Christians today believe and teach that the Church started on the day of Pentecost. When Jesus tells Peter, "I will build my church...." was a forecast of what was to come upon His death and resurrection. Jesus asked His disciples in Matthew 16:13, "whom do men say that I the son of man am?" Peter answers, "Thou art the Christ, the son of the living God." Jesus goes on to tell Peter that, "upon this rock" or Peter's faith, He will make this the foundation of His church. Matthew 16, is where "church" is first mentioned. Since Jesus is the one who stated this, then it would hold some merit. Many argue today that the "assembly" of the people of God is one, therefore is a mistake to teach that the church began at Pentecost. Church leaders refer to the Old Testament people who gather and worship God as the "church". But this is Israel, God's chosen people, and the gentile nations had not yet been indoctrinated into God's church yet. When Jesus says that He will build His church, He is referring to everyone, including gentiles.

Church
The Greek word for church is Ekklesia. This comes from two words that mean, "called" and "out from and to." So, two Christians stepping out and assembling themselves out from the world to worship God, can be the church. The Bible describes the church as "the body of Christ" and uses marriage as Christ's relationship with the church. Most Christians believe the church started the day of Pentecost in Acts chapter 2 when over a hundred followers of Christ received the Holy Spirit and later that day after hearing Peter preach the word, thousands were saved.

Ephesians 1:22-23 "And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all." The church could have NO functioning head until AFTER the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Ephesians 4:11-13 "And he gave some, Apostles; and some Prophets; and some Evangelists; and some Pastors and Teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith." When Jesus is talking to Peter about the church, the aim of His ministry is in this verse, "for the edifying of the body of Christ."

It is unfortunate that when Christians speak about when the church started that it divides God's people and puts them into different theological camps based on their understanding of the Bible. 1 Corinthians 12:12-14 speaks of believers being "one body" and that it doesn't matter if you are "Jew or Gentile". We as believers in Christ are one body or one church.

Acts 1:4-5 "being assembled together.......but wait for the promise of the Father......but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." Many point to this passage as showing that the church had not started until the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Acts 7:38 "This is he, that was in the church..." Stephen is speaking to the Israelites who have accused him of disrespecting Moses and the law. "church" is used to describe the gathering of these Israelites and is not to be misunderstood as the church we know of today. The Greek term "Ekklesia", sometimes possesses its general sense of congregation or assembly. In this passage, it is used for the gathering of the nation of Israel when it received the law.

The first time Jesus meets Peter is in John 1:35-43. It is also the first for Andrew too. Andrew finds his brother Peter and takes him to meet Jesus. It is at this encounter that our Savior calls Peter, "Cephas", which means stable as a rock(Aramaic). In Greek, Peter means "rock". The next time Peter meets Jesus is when Jesus starts His ministry, in Matthew 4:18-20. Jesus says, "follow me. I will make you fishers of men." Andrew and Peter were casting their nets, but immediately dropped what they were doing to start this journey with Jesus. Although Jesus had already met with some of His disciples, this doesn't mean He had started the church. It is only the BEGINNING of His teachings and guidance of introducing to them the start of the church.

Assembling of church in the Old Testament
In Deuteronomy 4:10, "Gather me the people together and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children." This "gathering" of people is that of Israel as an act of obedience to God's law. The one true church is the assembling of EVERYONE to worship our Father.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#2
It is unfortunate that when Christians speak about when the church started that it divides God's people and puts them into different theological camps based on their understanding of the Bible.
Amen. That is a crying shame. To destroy fellowship over the smallest of things. Love doesn't work like that.

In Heaven, the Bride shall be forever united with the Groom. Would not all of those who are members of the Bride be considered to be in the Church? Some of those people would be pretty ancient, yes?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,101
3,684
113
#4
Most Christians today believe and teach that the Church started on the day of Pentecost. When Jesus tells Peter, "I will build my church...." was a forecast of what was to come upon His death and resurrection. Jesus asked His disciples in Matthew 16:13, "whom do men say that I the son of man am?" Peter answers, "Thou art the Christ, the son of the living God." Jesus goes on to tell Peter that, "upon this rock" or Peter's faith, He will make this the foundation of His church. Matthew 16, is where "church" is first mentioned. Since Jesus is the one who stated this, then it would hold some merit. Many argue today that the "assembly" of the people of God is one, therefore is a mistake to teach that the church began at Pentecost. Church leaders refer to the Old Testament people who gather and worship God as the "church". But this is Israel, God's chosen people, and the gentile nations had not yet been indoctrinated into God's church yet. When Jesus says that He will build His church, He is referring to everyone, including gentiles.

Church
The Greek word for church is Ekklesia. This comes from two words that mean, "called" and "out from and to." So, two Christians stepping out and assembling themselves out from the world to worship God, can be the church. The Bible describes the church as "the body of Christ" and uses marriage as Christ's relationship with the church. Most Christians believe the church started the day of Pentecost in Acts chapter 2 when over a hundred followers of Christ received the Holy Spirit and later that day after hearing Peter preach the word, thousands were saved.

Ephesians 1:22-23 "And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all." The church could have NO functioning head until AFTER the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Ephesians 4:11-13 "And he gave some, Apostles; and some Prophets; and some Evangelists; and some Pastors and Teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith." When Jesus is talking to Peter about the church, the aim of His ministry is in this verse, "for the edifying of the body of Christ."

It is unfortunate that when Christians speak about when the church started that it divides God's people and puts them into different theological camps based on their understanding of the Bible. 1 Corinthians 12:12-14 speaks of believers being "one body" and that it doesn't matter if you are "Jew or Gentile". We as believers in Christ are one body or one church.

Acts 1:4-5 "being assembled together.......but wait for the promise of the Father......but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." Many point to this passage as showing that the church had not started until the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Acts 7:38 "This is he, that was in the church..." Stephen is speaking to the Israelites who have accused him of disrespecting Moses and the law. "church" is used to describe the gathering of these Israelites and is not to be misunderstood as the church we know of today. The Greek term "Ekklesia", sometimes possesses its general sense of congregation or assembly. In this passage, it is used for the gathering of the nation of Israel when it received the law.

The first time Jesus meets Peter is in John 1:35-43. It is also the first for Andrew too. Andrew finds his brother Peter and takes him to meet Jesus. It is at this encounter that our Savior calls Peter, "Cephas", which means stable as a rock(Aramaic). In Greek, Peter means "rock". The next time Peter meets Jesus is when Jesus starts His ministry, in Matthew 4:18-20. Jesus says, "follow me. I will make you fishers of men." Andrew and Peter were casting their nets, but immediately dropped what they were doing to start this journey with Jesus. Although Jesus had already met with some of His disciples, this doesn't mean He had started the church. It is only the BEGINNING of His teachings and guidance of introducing to them the start of the church.

Assembling of church in the Old Testament
In Deuteronomy 4:10, "Gather me the people together and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children." This "gathering" of people is that of Israel as an act of obedience to God's law. The one true church is the assembling of EVERYONE to worship our Father.
There is a difference between Gods physical people Israel, the church in the wilderness, and Christs people, his church, which is his body. Christs church has his righteousness because they are in him. This righteousness in his body was not available to the OT saints.
 

Dirtman

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2022
1,151
441
83
#5
I think that the letter to the Romans particularly chapter 9 is clear. The dispensationalist concept is wrong. There is and always has only ever been one people of God. They are those who are so by Grace and faith.
Even in the "old testament" it is made clear by the numbers of non-Israelites who are saved by faith and by the numbers of Israelite who die by their faithlessness.
And Gentiles are grafted into Abraham while some of his descendents by flesh are cut off.
 

Live4Him3

Jesus is Lord
May 19, 2022
1,383
640
113
#6
I think that the letter to the Romans particularly chapter 9 is clear. The dispensationalist concept is wrong. There is and always has only ever been one people of God. They are those who are so by Grace and faith.
Even in the "old testament" it is made clear by the numbers of non-Israelites who are saved by faith and by the numbers of Israelite who die by their faithlessness.
And Gentiles are grafted into Abraham while some of his descendents by flesh are cut off.
Exactly.

You might find this blog that I began on this topic my last time through here as "Live4Him2" to be of some interest:

https://christianchat.com/blogs/which-came-first-the-church-or-the-nation-of-israel.205002/
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,101
3,684
113
#8
I think that the letter to the Romans particularly chapter 9 is clear. The dispensationalist concept is wrong. There is and always has only ever been one people of God. They are those who are so by Grace and faith.
Even in the "old testament" it is made clear by the numbers of non-Israelites who are saved by faith and by the numbers of Israelite who die by their faithlessness.
And Gentiles are grafted into Abraham while some of his descendents by flesh are cut off.
Question: If we are the same, where did those OT saints go when they died? Where they absent from the body and present with the Lord?
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
591
113
#9
My own opinion is that the new testament Church came into being when the very first person believed in Jesus as Lord and put their faith in Him...
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,101
3,684
113
#10
Jesus Christ...the foundation of the church.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,421
6,700
113
#11
My own opinion is that the new testament Church came into being when the very first person believed in Jesus as Lord and put their faith in Him...
Many believe that very first person is Abraham.
 

HealthAndHappiness

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2022
10,230
4,284
113
Almost Heaven West Virginia
#13
I've changed my mind over the years.
Jesus had stated that upon this Rock, I will build my church. A church if defined as an assembly of believers who are taught God's Word with Jesus at the Head would apply to more than I originally thought. He definitely had established His church and it was not upon Peter with apostolic succession.
We can see the LORD as Head of O.T. assemblies gathered together to hear God's Word read and taught. I'm inclined to think that the LORD was always Head of His people for this purpose. They denied and rejected Him many times, including when He de ended to Earth. The leadership He established was not fit to carry out His Word. He established a new and better covenant at that time. He also reestablished the assembling of believers together for edification and instructions. New spiritual gifts were provided for these purposes.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,421
6,700
113
#14
Abraham is thee first to receive the Gospel. There is but one Gospel.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,314
1,442
113
#15
Abraham is thee first to receive the Gospel. There is but one Gospel.
If by "gospel" you mean good news, I agree completely. If by "gospel" you mean "church", I would say those are two different words and have different meanings.
 

Dirtman

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2022
1,151
441
83
#16
Question: If we are the same, where did those OT saints go when they died? Where they absent from the body and present with the Lord?
Romans 10:5–8 (LEB): 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is from the law: “The person who does this will live by it.”  6 But the righteousness from faith speaks like this: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or “Who will descend into the abyss?” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim)

Continue reading in Romans
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,101
3,684
113
#17
Romans 10:5–8 (LEB): 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is from the law: “The person who does this will live by it.”  6 But the righteousness from faith speaks like this: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or “Who will descend into the abyss?” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim)

Continue reading in Romans
Answer: No, they were not absent from the body and present with the Lord because they did not have the blood of Christ. The best they could do is live a life pleasing to God under the law and end up in Abraham's bosom upon death, until the Lord could set them free with his blood.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#19
Most Christians today believe and teach that the Church started on the day of Pentecost. When Jesus tells Peter, "I will build my church...." was a forecast of what was to come upon His death and resurrection. Jesus asked His disciples in Matthew 16:13, "whom do men say that I the son of man am?" Peter answers, "Thou art the Christ, the son of the living God." Jesus goes on to tell Peter that, "upon this rock" or Peter's faith, He will make this the foundation of His church. Matthew 16, is where "church" is first mentioned. Since Jesus is the one who stated this, then it would hold some merit. Many argue today that the "assembly" of the people of God is one, therefore is a mistake to teach that the church began at Pentecost. Church leaders refer to the Old Testament people who gather and worship God as the "church". But this is Israel, God's chosen people, and the gentile nations had not yet been indoctrinated into God's church yet. When Jesus says that He will build His church, He is referring to everyone, including gentiles.

Church
The Greek word for church is Ekklesia. This comes from two words that mean, "called" and "out from and to." So, two Christians stepping out and assembling themselves out from the world to worship God, can be the church. The Bible describes the church as "the body of Christ" and uses marriage as Christ's relationship with the church. Most Christians believe the church started the day of Pentecost in Acts chapter 2 when over a hundred followers of Christ received the Holy Spirit and later that day after hearing Peter preach the word, thousands were saved.

Ephesians 1:22-23 "And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all." The church could have NO functioning head until AFTER the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Ephesians 4:11-13 "And he gave some, Apostles; and some Prophets; and some Evangelists; and some Pastors and Teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith." When Jesus is talking to Peter about the church, the aim of His ministry is in this verse, "for the edifying of the body of Christ."

It is unfortunate that when Christians speak about when the church started that it divides God's people and puts them into different theological camps based on their understanding of the Bible. 1 Corinthians 12:12-14 speaks of believers being "one body" and that it doesn't matter if you are "Jew or Gentile". We as believers in Christ are one body or one church.

Acts 1:4-5 "being assembled together.......but wait for the promise of the Father......but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." Many point to this passage as showing that the church had not started until the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Acts 7:38 "This is he, that was in the church..." Stephen is speaking to the Israelites who have accused him of disrespecting Moses and the law. "church" is used to describe the gathering of these Israelites and is not to be misunderstood as the church we know of today. The Greek term "Ekklesia", sometimes possesses its general sense of congregation or assembly. In this passage, it is used for the gathering of the nation of Israel when it received the law.

The first time Jesus meets Peter is in John 1:35-43. It is also the first for Andrew too. Andrew finds his brother Peter and takes him to meet Jesus. It is at this encounter that our Savior calls Peter, "Cephas", which means stable as a rock(Aramaic). In Greek, Peter means "rock". The next time Peter meets Jesus is when Jesus starts His ministry, in Matthew 4:18-20. Jesus says, "follow me. I will make you fishers of men." Andrew and Peter were casting their nets, but immediately dropped what they were doing to start this journey with Jesus. Although Jesus had already met with some of His disciples, this doesn't mean He had started the church. It is only the BEGINNING of His teachings and guidance of introducing to them the start of the church.

Assembling of church in the Old Testament
In Deuteronomy 4:10, "Gather me the people together and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children." This "gathering" of people is that of Israel as an act of obedience to God's law. The one true church is the assembling of EVERYONE to worship our Father.

It is true that chosen, elect children, have come up with an untold amount of false doctrines, but of all of the doctrines of the world, there is only one doctrine that was taught by Jesus, and will always have a witness until the end of time.

My understanding is that there is an invisible church which includes all of God's elect, and there is a visible church which includes those of the elect that have been revealed, by the Holy Spirit, the knowledge of what Jesus accomplished on the cross. The visible church is identified by the remnant, the little flock, the few, etc.

The harmonizing scriptures that teach this are Ezekiel 10, especially, verse 10. The outer wheel include those of God's elect who are teaching false doctrines, and the smaller inner wheel include some of God's elect that have been revealed the knowledge of what Jesus accomplished on the cross.

The two gates, in Matt 7:13-14, also harmonizes, depicting the wide gate as the outer wheel, and the straight gate as the smaller inner wheel.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,421
6,700
113
#20
If by "gospel" you mean good news, I agree completely. If by "gospel" you mean "church", I would say those are two different words and have different meanings.
Suffice it to say, I have known the difference over half a century. Why would you ask such a question of any who believe Jesus Yeshua? It is my believe anyone who has come to Him in spirit and truth knows the difference.